Saddam Hussein

[BossTalker]

Is Iraq more better off today than they were when Saddam was in charge, killing any bastard that got out of line? You spineless bastards that cry over him killing those other rag head Kurds, speak up!!!!

after 9-11, those Kurds that you were crying about, were shedding tears of joy while jumping in the middle of the streets celebrating.



oh well, time to go to the lake that guarantees that I will limit out on nothing but 16", 2.5lb., P. Nigromaculatus while I use the wonderful jigs from Slab Me Silly....

www.slabmesilly.com

[MasterBevo]

Is Iraq more better off today than they were when Saddam was in charge, killing any bastard that got out of line?

Hell yes. How ignorant do you have to be to even ask that question?

Whether or not the war was "worth it", for us, is debatable topic. Whether or not it was "worth it" for Iraqis, is not.

[Hero1957]

I fear that freedom is not the desired life for these people.
The day we leave there will be the day they begin civil war.

Saddam or some one like him will rule them.

[NCT]

I fear that freedom is not the desired life for these people.
The day we leave there will be the day they begin civil war.

Saddam or some one like him will rule them.

Yup. All very complicated. We can't undo what was done, but arbitrary political lines across different peoples doesn't often work out very well (or I suppose one could do it like we did it here in North America and simply wipe out the locals to make way for our lines).

I remember some people being a little surprised at the ethnic-cultural violence that broke out in eastern Europe (Bosnians, Serbs, etc.) shortly after the wall came a-tumblin' down. Dude, if not for the Soviet Union imposing a sort of "pax Russia", they'd have been fighting the entire time. Apparently, people forget where WWI was triggered. It's no accident that the apparently "quiet" period between the conclusion of WWI and the onset of the Bosnian War happened to coincide with the USSR's lifespan.

Even with all of our ethnic and cultural problems here in the good ol' U.S., we have a hard time understanding what real nationalism is in other parts of the world. I was in Cardiff once, and I overheard another American tourist make some well-intended comment about the local culture among "you English". After a moment of silence and some awkward glares, I quietly pulled her aside and suggested she needed to remember that these people were Welsh, not English. She was truly puzzled. With a few exceptions, we just have a different sense of identity here.

[ZOOMBAG]

Yup. All very complicated. We can't undo what was done, but arbitrary political lines across different peoples doesn't often work out very well (or I suppose one could do it like we did it here in North America and simply wipe out the locals to make way for our lines).

I remember some people being a little surprised at the ethnic-cultural violence that broke out in eastern Europe (Bosnians, Serbs, etc.) shortly after the wall came a-tumblin' down. Dude, if not for the Soviet Union imposing a sort of "pax Russia", they'd have been fighting the entire time. Apparently, people forget where WWI was triggered. It's no accident that the apparently "quiet" period between the conclusion of WWI and the onset of the Bosnian War happened to coincide with the USSR's lifespan.

Even with all of our ethnic and cultural problems here in the good ol' U.S., we have a hard time understanding what real nationalism is in other parts of the world. I was in Cardiff once, and I overheard another American tourist make some well-intended comment about the local culture among "you English". After a moment of silence and some awkward glares, I quietly pulled her aside and suggested she needed to remember that these people were Welsh, not English. She was truly puzzled. With a few exceptions, we just have a different sense of identity here.

Most of the world is nothing like us. We are, unique.

[MasterBevo]

(or I suppose one could do it like we did it here in North America and simply wipe out the locals to make way for our lines).


Yup... Sherman did a pretty good job of that....

All you history buffs should read a little more about the land that makes up Iraq. It's not all been civil war.

[ZOOMBAG]

Yup... Sherman did a pretty good job of that....

All you history buffs should read a little more about the land that makes up Iraq. It's not all been civil war.

Iraq, has largely been dominated by empires from elsewhere for most of the past 2000 years. Mongols, Persians, Ottoman Turks, British, etc....

[MasterBevo]

Iraq, has largely been dominated by empires from elsewhere for most of the past 2000 years. Mongols, Persians, Ottoman Turks, British, etc....

yep.. but during those times... not always fighting amongst themselves..

[Hero1957]

Yup... Sherman did a pretty good job of that....

All you history buffs should read a little more about the land that makes up Iraq. It's not all been civil war.

Don't know much about the History of Iraq, I do know about Sherman.
The Bastard burned down my University(including the Library-which he was begged to not do). We have been kicking LSU's butt ever since.

Hell no, I ain't forgettin'

[ZOOMBAG]

yep.. but during those times... not always fighting amongst themselves..

At some time we will come to realize there are large swaths of humanity that simply are not culturally mature enough, and likely never will be, to ever be self governing democracies. Quite certainly most of the Middle East would resemble Sub-Saharan Africa if not for oil. Basically any part of the world that is based on a tribal culture is not fertile ground for democracies.

Democracy in Afghanistan will NEVER succeed, long term. Same with Iraq and much of the Arabic world. Same for most of Central Asia, and even Russia. These regions will always fall back on a "strong man" or some form of autocratic rule. We simply lack the will or global support to impose on these peoples what we imposed on Japan.

[Hero1957]

At some time we will come to realize there are large swaths of humanity that simply are not culturally mature enough, and likely never will be, to ever be self governing democracies. Quite certainly most of the Middle East would resemble Sub-Saharan Africa if not for oil. Basically any part of the world that is based on a tribal culture is not fertile ground for democracies.

Democracy in Afghanistan will NEVER succeed, long term. Same with Iraq and much of the Arabic world. Same for most of Central Asia, and even Russia. These regions will always fall back on a "strong man" or some form of autocratic rule. We simply lack the will or global support to impose on these peoples what we imposed on Japan.

The U S seems to want to go backwards to this as well.
I listened to OBama speak as he was running.
At one point he said
the world will not aprove us driving the kind of cars we drive and
eating the food we eat. People applauded when he said this.

Some People here in America want to be controlled by the government.

[MasterBevo]

At some time we will come to realize there are large swaths of humanity that simply are not culturally mature enough, and likely never will be, to ever be self governing democracies.

I don't disagree with this... but, I don't think YOU or I can be the arbiter of which countries can and which can't Societies DO change over time, with increases in education. Global internet access is changing that alot as well.

I think, the jury is out on Iraq. I believe, it IS possible.. though decidedly NOT guaranteed that Iraq can manage something like a democracy. I definitely believe Iran could... if given the chance. Afghanistan?? no chance...

I think, the more democracies the better... but, that's just me. :p