Program Pecking Order

[PSUFan]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/08/08/cfb.bag/index.html?bcnn=yes

[jeff4bucks]

saw this yesterday. Some interesting notes. They contend that LSU doesn't have the tradition the others schools do, and thats why they were left of the "Kings" list, but FSU and UF do? no disrespect to those fine schools, but they are johnny-come-latelys compared to the other programs on the list. Miami is too, but at least they have more championships than the other two combined.

[GatorGrad]

saw this yesterday. Some interesting notes. They contend that LSU doesn't have the tradition the others schools do, and thats why they were left of the "Kings" list, but FSU and UF do? no disrespect to those fine schools, but they are johnny-come-latelys compared to the other programs on the list. Miami is too, but at least they have more championships than the other two combined.

What is the defition of a "johnny-come-lately?" Florida and Florida State have been very good programs over the last 25 years. What is the cut-off? 30 years? 40? 50? Should Minnesota be a "King" for all of their MNC's back in the day? Just curious.

You can't compare LSU to Florida or FSU yet because LSU was very average in the 90's and didn't really do much until Saban got there. Florida started playing at a high level around 1984 and a really really high level when Spurrier came in 1990. FSU's run started in 1987. LSU really didn't start their current run of dominance until 2001/2002. A few more SEC Titles and another MNC would likely put them in the Kings category.

But keep in mind this is one person's opinion. Nothing to get worked up over.

[PSUFan]

Come on guys...it's one man's opinion...now federal law.

[EvilVodka]

JMO...if you have Texas on the list for kings, its hard not to have LSU there as well...both have similar resumes since 2000...

[Hubbs]

LSU doesnt have the record Auburn does since 2000 in conference. Im not saying Aubie deserves to be any higher at all. They are about the 13th or 14th best program all time. LSU is 12th or 13th I believe.

[jeff4bucks]

What is the defition of a "johnny-come-lately?" Florida and Florida State have been very good programs over the last 25 years. What is the cut-off? 30 years? 40? 50? Should Minnesota be a "King" for all of their MNC's back in the day? Just curious.

You can't compare LSU to Florida or FSU yet because LSU was very average in the 90's and didn't really do much until Saban got there. Florida started playing at a high level around 1984 and a really really high level when Spurrier came in 1990. FSU's run started in 1987. LSU really didn't start their current run of dominance until 2001/2002. A few more SEC Titles and another MNC would likely put them in the Kings category.

But keep in mind this is one person's opinion. Nothing to get worked up over.

I knew you'd get a bit defensive GG. i'm not knocking your school, BUT....UF started playing at a high level consistently in 1990. The probations yrs shouldn't count, and it was only 2 yrs. When a program goes back as far as the early 1900s and didn't become good until 1990 and hadn't won a conference title till the following year, then yeah, that would define a Johnny-come-lately.

Minnesota should not be in the Kings category since all their titles occured back in a 10 year period or so in the 30's and haven't done much since. As Mandel stated, Minnesota has been irrelevent for decades.

[GopherGuy]

I knew you'd get a bit defensive GG. i'm not knocking your school, BUT....UF started playing at a high level consistently in 1990. The probations yrs shouldn't count, and it was only 2 yrs. When a program goes back as far as the early 1900s and didn't become good until 1990 and hadn't won a conference title till the following year, then yeah, that would define a Johnny-come-lately.

Minnesota should not be in the Kings category since all their titles occured back in a 10 year period or so in the 30's and haven't done much since. As Mandel stated, Minnesota has been irrelevent for decades.

No question that it has been a long time since we were relevant on a "big picture" scale, but give us a bit more credit than that - we did win the national title in 1960 after all! :)

[EvilVodka]

Those kinds of lists tend to be strongly subjective. Obviously, it's a combination of all-time reputation and what-have-you-done-for-me-lately. I have no problem with my alma mater's being called a "baron" and not a "king". But in the past 10 years, many schools (including Georgia) have a more regal resume than Notre Dame (for example). For all-time results, however, I'll definitely concede that Notre Dame is ahead of UGA (even though the all-time head-to-head between the two is 100% in the Dogs' favor - <chuckle>).

With Florida and FSU, it's the opposite. I can't concede that the Gators or the 'Noles are ahead of UGA all-time (UGA's won about 54% of all games against each) , but they're definitely ahead over the past 20 years, during which time they either have or definitely could have beaten Georgia most years.

But again, I have no major argument with the lists. Both recent and remote stellar successes deserve recognition.

I see all-time winning % as just a part of the "Club of Kings" formula....other parts are extraordinary achievements, NC rings, bowl wins, etc.

Here is cfbdatawarehouse's take:

http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/rankings/all_time_team_rankings.php

Georgia is above FSU and Florida...so is Minnesota, Princeton, Yale, and Harvard lol

[jeff4bucks]

Gopher Guy- I forgot you guys won a title in 1960! Though, that wasn't exactly yesterday. Had Lou Holtz stayed and not bolted to ND in his second year, things might've been different. I hope your new coach brings success to the program. New stadium will be nice too.

[Don]

There are several things I want to point out.

Here is the list of 13 "kings" of football.
Alabama, Florida, Florida State, Miami, Michigan, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Tennessee*, Texas and USC.

1) Florida is NOT a Johnny-come lately. Here is a list of the winningest programs percentage wise over the past 60 years (~end of WWII).

1 Oklahoma (516-157-13)--0.76166
2 Ohio St. (480-157-18)--0.74656
3 Penn St. (488-174-9)--0.73398
4 Michigan (475-172-14)--0.7292
5 Nebraska (491-193-9)--0.71501
6 Texas (483-191-11)--0.71314
7 Notre Dame (459-192-13)--0.70105
8 Alabama (477-203-19)--0.69599
9 USC (463-196-23)--0.69575
10 Boise St. (318-139-2)--0.69499
11 Tennessee (467-199-23)--0.69448
12 Florida St. (443-211-17)--0.67288
13 Arizona St. (434-221-8)--0.66063
14 Florida (437-225-19)--0.65565 *****
15 Miami (OH) (406-210-19)--0.65433
16 Miami (FL) (432-228-7)--0.65292
17 Auburn (429-225-16)--0.65224
18 Georgia (435-228-22)--0.65109
19 UCLA (411-228-19)--0.63906
20 LSU (417-239-23)--0.63108

2)How about looking at the "quality of opponents"?
Here are the rankings of these 20 teams based on their opponents W-L records. The position ranking nationally is listed first.

1 Florida ( 3999 - 2751 - 167 ) 0.590213 *****
2 Auburn ( 3917 - 2714 - 160 ) 0.588573
3 Notre Dame ( 3788 - 2700 - 158 ) 0.581854
4 Florida St. ( 3756 - 2684 - 109 ) 0.581845
5 Alabama ( 4039 - 2884 - 154 ) 0.581602
6 Miami (FL) ( 3829 - 2742 - 149 ) 0.580878
7 USC ( 3858 - 2820 - 145 ) 0.576066
9 Tennessee ( 3903 - 2879 - 165 ) 0.573701
10 Penn St. ( 3750 - 2799 - 139 ) 0.571097
12 Texas ( 3878 - 2924 - 151 ) 0.568603
14 Georgia ( 3844 - 2927 - 167 ) 0.566085
15 UCLA ( 3671 - 2801 - 154 ) 0.565650
16 Nebraska ( 3856 - 2948 - 151 ) 0.565277
17 Michigan ( 3623 - 2783 - 149 ) 0.564073
18 LSU ( 3817 - 2938 - 145 ) 0.563696
19 Oklahoma ( 3831 - 2961 - 146 ) 0.562698
38 Ohio St. ( 3460 - 2903 - 137 ) 0.542846
70 Boise St. ( 2330 - 2153 - 24 ) 0.519636
79 Arizona St. ( 3295 - 3144 - 132 ) 0.511490
109 Miami (OH) ( 2942 - 3014 - 128 ) 0.494083

3) These are w-l records vs ALL opponents both D1A and non-D1A. Are these games against poor teams to bolster the w-l records? Here is the list with the number of ranked opponents and the position ranking nationally.

1 Florida 227 opponents *****
2 Notre Dame 223
3 Texas 208
4 T LSU 207
4 T Tennessee 207
6 USC 206
7 T Alabama 205
9 Michigan 198
10 T Miami "(FL) 196
13 Auburn 195
16 T UCLA 193
18 T Nebraska 192
22 T Georgia 189
22 T Penn St. 189
24 Oklahoma 188
32 Ohio St. 180
45 T Florida St. 158
68 Arizona St. 97
96 Miami "(OH) 26
113 T Boise St. 11

Notice that UF has the 14th and Miami (FL) has the 16th best record over the past 60 years behind ASU, BSU, and Miami (OH)!! Yet if one looks at their respective opponents you will find ASU, BSU, and Miami (OH) near the bottom. I think his list is pretty accurate and puts UF and Miami (FL) in the top Baker's dozen teams.

[jeff4bucks]

c'mon don, thats got to be the biggest homer post in months. anyone can through stats out like that. Besides, NCT posted all-time winning percentage and UF was 20th. First, why did you choose to go back 60 years (besides end of WW11)? most schools on the list were playing way beyond that, some schools, including Florida State, were just starting. Second, "quality opponents" is a subjective argument. a division 1AA program or a cannon fodder 1A school can have a good overall record, should that count as a quality win though?

I'm not knocking UF. Great school, great program. I live in south Florida, have friends and relatives at UF, but....bottom line, did they win anything from 190?-1990?

[Blue Hen]

I've been following this college football, pretty closely, since 1973. Here's my personal opinion 'pecking order' for those 34 years :

1) Florida State
2) Nebraska
3) Oklahoma
4) Miami
5) Penn State
6) Southern Cal
7) Michigan
8) Alabama
9) Ohio State
10) Florida
11) Notre Dame
12) Auburn
13) Texas
14) Tennessee
15) Georgia
16) Clemson
17) Pittsburgh
18) Washington
19) Colorado
20) Arizona State
21) LSU
22) Virginia Tech
23) UCLA
24) Kansas State
25) BYU

[CJHawkeyes]

FWIW, my system's pecking order since 1978 (first year for I-A)

1 -Florida State
2 -Nebraska
3 -Miami-Florida
4 -Michigan
5 -Ohio State
6 -Florida
7 -Southern California
8 -Penn State
9 -Oklahoma
10 -Notre Dame
11 -Tennessee
12 -Alabama
13 -Georgia
14 -Auburn
15 -Texas
16 -Brigham Young
17 -UCLA
18 -Washington
19 -Clemson
20 -Louisiana State
21 -Texas A&M
22 -Arkansas
23 -West Virginia
24 -Virginia Tech
25 -Iowa

[GatorGrad]

My pecking order for college football & basketball since 2006:

Florida

:)

[Don]

c'mon don, thats got to be the biggest homer post in months. anyone can through stats out like that. Besides, NCT posted all-time winning percentage and UF was 20th. First, why did you choose to go back 60 years (besides end of WW11)? most schools on the list were playing way beyond that, some schools, including Florida State, were just starting.

Yeah it is a homer post but I was defending my team against those that said UF was a Johnny-come-lately. So I figured 60 years was NOT "lately".

Second, "quality opponents" is a subjective argument. a division 1AA program or a cannon fodder 1A school can have a good overall record, should that count as a quality win though?

I'm not knocking UF. Great school, great program. I live in south Florida, have friends and relatives at UF, but....bottom line, did they win anything from 190?-1990?

That's why I post the # of AP ranked opponents over the past 60 years (UF has played more ranked opponents than anyone else (227) and STILL has the 14th best winning percentage. UF has played 47 MORE ranked opponents than OSU over that span. Suppose UF traded 47 ranked opponents that we lost to for bottom feeder D1A teams. That would remove 47 losses and add 47 wins yet still play the same number of ranked opponents as OSU. that would move UF to 484-178-10 0.72768, good enough for 5th place.

As for not winning anything from 190?-1990, what did Miami or FSU win? PSU's 1st NC was 1982, Miami's 1st NC was in 1983 (and by the way Miami's only loss was to UF, 28-3). Some polls had UF #1 in 1984 but probation (actually SEC) prevented UF from going to bowl or claiming NC. Since 1980 UF has the 6th best w-l record behind Mia, Neb, FSU, Mich, and OSU despite playing 17 more ranked opponents than FSU, 25 more than Miami, 32 more than Mich, and 39 more than OSU and Neb!! Just take 20 UF losses and convert them to wins and UF would have the BEST w-l records and still more ranked opponents than Miami, Michigan, OSU and Nebraska.

P.S. ...anyone can through stats out.... I think you meant "...anyone can throw stats out...." and go ahead and throw some out for OSU.