Two notions....

[ZOOMBAG]

1) Anyone old enough to remember when about the only health insurance one could buy was "Major Medical". It paid for next to nothing and only protected you from CATASTROPHIC events. You paid for all your own pills, doctor visits, dental visits, etc... It's what my dad had for most of his working days. In today's dollars it ran about $40 mo for a family of four. Why does no one offer that anymore? If we all bought home-owner's insurance like we do medical insurance we'd pay $1000+ month, and call our insurance company every time we had a plumber out to unplug a toilet or light the pilot lite on our hot water heater.....

2) A President who truly wanted BIPARTISAN support on everything would vow to veto anything that hit his desk with fewer than 33% of the opposing party's support. The only things that would ever pass would be things with widespread, deep seeded popular support across all spectrum's. And in the end, that's the only type of laws that should EVER pass anywhere.

[Bucs90]

Well, Zoom, because the politics of envy kicked in. See, when ACORN welfare babies grew up, and they realized they could either:

A) Buy health insurance
B) Buy a new Escalade
C) Buy a new flat screen TV
D) Buy the new Jordan's and season tickets to the Bulls

They realized they couldn't do all 4. So, the government pandered and made health care a "right". I'm sure there were many times your dad, who sounds like a traditional, hard working man who took care of his family, would've loved to drop $40 on a hobby or luxury items, but rather spent it on health insurance. And, knowing he and his family were protected, spending the money on a doctors bill or pill were OK. Many people did that.

But, then along with entitlement mentality, doctors began to lose money due to unpaid bills. From illegals. And people who wanted ALL medical costs covered through their insurance bought insurance that did it. And doctors then knew they could recoup lost money by billing those with insurance more. And doctors NEEDED to do that, because trial lawyers got crazy with lawsuits, lack of tort reform, so docs needed to make money to pay their own malpractice insurance.

So, rampant illegal immigration, government handouts, victim and envy mentality, trial lawyers, etc, etc, and here we are.

[ZOOMBAG]

Well, Zoom, because the politics of envy kicked in. See, when ACORN welfare babies grew up, and they realized they could either:

A) Buy health insurance
B) Buy a new Escalade
C) Buy a new flat screen TV
D) Buy the new Jordan's and season tickets to the Bulls

They realized they couldn't do all 4. So, the government pandered and made health care a "right". I'm sure there were many times your dad, who sounds like a traditional, hard working man who took care of his family, would've loved to drop $40 on a hobby or luxury items, but rather spent it on health insurance. And, knowing he and his family were protected, spending the money on a doctors bill or pill were OK. Many people did that.

But, then along with entitlement mentality, doctors began to lose money due to unpaid bills. From illegals. And people who wanted ALL medical costs covered through their insurance bought insurance that did it. And doctors then knew they could recoup lost money by billing those with insurance more. And doctors NEEDED to do that, because trial lawyers got crazy with lawsuits, lack of tort reform, so docs needed to make money to pay their own malpractice insurance.

So, rampant illegal immigration, government handouts, victim and envy mentality, trial lawyers, etc, etc, and here we are.

I think the pharmaceutical industry did more to destroy that model than anything, especially when combined with our societal "entitlement" mentality where virtually everything has become a "right". 45 years ago, healthy people had $0 medical bills, and paid their dentist once a year for an exam. They might have gotten some eyeglasses but paid out-of-pocket for it. Even a family of four could go a year with virtually no health care expenditure at all other than a bottle of Bayer aspirin and some cough syrup.

But all of a sudden, we had kids with ADD and they made a pill for that. We worried about cholesterol and made $20 pills for that. We got depressed and got $50 happy pills. We had to have $15 pills for Fibromyalga (aches and pains...like having to endure SEC fans). We got pills to get a four hour hard-on in our seventies. Pills to make us sleep, pills to wake us up, pills make us not care about stuff, pills to makes us care more....... And then, we decided that if the "rich" were getting them, then all should ENTITLED to them.....and down the slippery slope we all slid.....

[aufan59]

I think the pharmaceutical industry did more to destroy that model than anything, especially when combined with our societal "entitlement" mentality where virtually everything has become a "right". 45 years ago, healthy people had $0 medical bills, and paid their dentist once a year for an exam. They might have gotten some eyeglasses but paid out-of-pocket for it. Even a family of four could go a year with virtually no health care expenditure at all other than a bottle of Bayer aspirin and some cough syrup.

But all of a sudden, we had kids with ADD and they made a pill for that. We worried about cholesterol and made $20 pills for that. We got depressed and got $50 happy pills. We had to have $15 pills for Fibromyalga (aches and pains...like having to endure SEC fans). We got pills to get a four hour hard-on in our seventies. Pills to make us sleep, pills to wake us up, pills make us not care about stuff, pills to makes us care more....... And then, we decided that if the "rich" were getting them, then all should ENTITLED to them.....and down the slippery slope we all slid.....

I'm glad someone else besides me realizes this. Big pharma hasn't cured a disease since vaccinations. If you look at most drugs they are inhibitors, meaning they hinder a process in the body from occurring.

We know relatively nothing about how the human body operates, so we take this wrecking ball approach. Hardly the miracle cures that they are made out to be, and that some feel entitled too.

Mind altering drugs are the fastest growing market. Don't like your personality, behavior, or state of mind? Change it! Sponsored by the government.

[MasterBevo]

I think the pharmaceutical industry did more to destroy that model than anything, especially when combined with our societal "entitlement" mentality where virtually everything has become a "right". 45 years ago, healthy people had $0 medical bills, and paid their dentist once a year for an exam. They might have gotten some eyeglasses but paid out-of-pocket for it. Even a family of four could go a year with virtually no health care expenditure at all other than a bottle of Bayer aspirin and some cough syrup.

But all of a sudden, we had kids with ADD and they made a pill for that. We worried about cholesterol and made $20 pills for that. We got depressed and got $50 happy pills. We had to have $15 pills for Fibromyalga (aches and pains...like having to endure SEC fans). We got pills to get a four hour hard-on in our seventies. Pills to make us sleep, pills to wake us up, pills make us not care about stuff, pills to makes us care more....... And then, we decided that if the "rich" were getting them, then all should ENTITLED to them.....and down the slippery slope we all slid.....

ROFL! Right On!!! Preach it, brother!

I agree 100%...

Since you were so wrong about the Contract with America... you've come back with a wave of very correct and insightful comments.. :D

BTW>>> I agree with you that Brown's victory is NOT a sign of a big swing toward conservatism.... I think it's a continuation, and acceleration of a swing toward... a DIFFERENT way of doing politics... Common sense is making a comeback.

[NCT]

Re "cough syrup" - When I was growing up, we we had the brown glass pharmacy bottle of purple grape-flavored stuff, but Mom also kept a small container of bourbon/honey/lemon juice on standby.

[MasterBevo]

At the end, you touched on another topic that really had me morally perplexed... and, I think is one of the problems with the current health care debate.


I think, we all agree... that in this country, we will give "basic care" to anyone who needs it.

The problem is... there have been SO MANY advances in medicine. Miraculous things can be done now... but, many are hugely expensive. So now, my dilema.... do we all have a "right" to the best health care money can buy? Do we ALL have "right" to $500k heart transplants? Hand Transplants?? Dialysis??

Morally... it's difficult to say one person "deserves it", and another doesn't. But, is it totally immoral to say "some people can afford it, and others can't"?? I don't think so... because, that is reality. As a society,we cannot afford the top level of care for everyone. It's simply, a hard cold reality.

If we must be EQUAL to all, the quality of care MUST drop to an average. So... innovation dries up. Advancements slow down. In the long run, I think that hurts us all.

It's a problem I struggle with.. Personally, I'm "ok" with the idea that others may be able to "afford" better care than me... But, if government is in control of all health care, I believe that kind of thinking would not be allowable.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

Re "cough syrup" - When I was growing up, we we had the brown glass pharmacy bottle of purple grape-flavored stuff, but Mom also kept a small container of bourbon/honey/lemon juice on standby.

---

Glue during elementary school art class was in. Johnson and Johnson could not afford to buy the Elmers Glue Company so they went a different way.

[NCT]

I wrote a paper back in school about how the two national ideals to which we give the most lip service in this country, freedom and equality, often are in competition with one another. Yes, yes, "equality of opportunity" and all that, but that's a matter of perspective. I had a lot more "opportunity" due to where and to whom I was born than most people have.

I think, initially, "equality" was thrown around only as a justification to exercise liberty: a Virginia landowner and the king of England were "equal", so that justified the Virginian's exercise of liberty from the king's rule. In retrospect, that evolved quite naturally into issues regarding the Virginian and his equal slaves.

It really is a matter of how we view the notion of equality. And I do agree with you that while I was born into a relatively comfortable situation, removin some idea of equality, the solution isn't to ration out everything from the moment of birth. And that includes health care. I, too, am ok reconciling myself to the notion that some can afford better health care than others. I'm not crazy about the idea, just as I'm not all that happy about a lot of inequalities that come about not because of individual effort or lack thereof but because of the chance of particular circumstances.

But quality of health care - even whether one has access to it - really is different from quality of living room rugs - or whether one has a rug. And I do believe that the great disparity in access to even basic health care makes that basic health care more expensive for everybody. And, of course, we have to decide (if we can) what "basic health care" means in the first place.

I've been having fun with health care the last few weeks. I've developed some cervical spine issues causing some pretty severe symptoms from time to time. I've spent close to $1,000 out of my own pocket so far, and I have pretty decent insurance (not as good as it might be if I worked for a big company, but not so bad considering how small my firm is). But I have $1,000 to spend on such things. And my education and skills are such that the symptoms never prevented me from working. What if I were an uneducated manual laborer with no insurance? I could get SSDI, but only if the condition were disabling for at least a year. I could qualify for Medicaid and SSI, but only after being out of work for long enough. Meanwhile, not only am I becoming poor, my return to productive participation in the world is being delayed, so whoever might benefit from my labor isn't getting it. And that's the best-case scenario, if everything works out and I eventually get the care I need. It just seems to me that I have become more of a burden and for a longer period of time than I would have been if I'd had access to some kind of remedial treatment at the time or even before I became disabled.

Of course, knowing what I know from my work, I could just think up some reason why my condition was caused by my work and try to stick it to my employer, burdening the economy in a different way.

[MasterBevo]

I wrote a paper back in school about how the two national ideals to which we give the most lip service in this country, freedom and equality, often are in competition with one another.

I wrote a paper back in school that passionately argued abolition of the Electoral College.... I HATE the theme of my paper now... Sounds like your paper has better withstood the test of time. :)



It really is a matter of how we view the notion of equality. And I do agree with you that while I was born into a relatively comfortable situation, removin some idea of equality, the solution isn't to ration out everything from the moment of birth. And that includes health care.

Hey! Once again.. we find agreement. The thing is... we're not the only bright people in the world. The medical field has a few and they've tried to find innovative ways to get around this. Many doctors (especially high end specialist) will do free work for patients in high need and no insurance. We DO have entire hospital systems in many major cities set up to treat people with little or no money. I've seen this system in operation up close, and personal. In Louisville, at least... it's not a terrible system.

I'd prefer to see expansion of these kinds of systems, rather than have all of us get insurance from the government. I'd like to see us try to expand free (or low cost) clinics used to replace emergency rooms, which aren't really designed for routine issues... I'd just like to see more discussion about improving the systems we have, rather than move the entire country to a single-payer government system.


I've been having fun with health care the last few weeks.

Sorry to hear that... My experience has been... even when you HAVE insurance, the best plan is to avoid the health care system altogether... ;)

That said... the knowledge that having a good job=good health care insurance remains, IMO, a strong driver for young people to push themselves for success. At it's core.... what makes capitalism more productive than other systems is:

1) Greed, and
2) Fear.

The more we eliminate either of those, the less productive we become as a society. The trick is to strike the right balance. Which, is why we debate.

[Hero1957]

1) Anyone old enough to remember when about the only health insurance one could buy was "Major Medical". It paid for next to nothing and only protected you from CATASTROPHIC events. You paid for all your own pills, doctor visits, dental visits, etc... It's what my dad had for most of his working days. In today's dollars it ran about $40 mo for a family of four. Why does no one offer that anymore? If we all bought home-owner's insurance like we do medical insurance we'd pay $1000+ month, and call our insurance company every time we had a plumber out to unplug a toilet or light the pilot lite on our hot water heater.....

2) A President who truly wanted BIPARTISAN support on everything would vow to veto anything that hit his desk with fewer than 33% of the opposing party's support. The only things that would ever pass would be things with widespread, deep seeded popular support across all spectrum's. And in the end, that's the only type of laws that should EVER pass anywhere.

Back in those days you didn't have to go bankrupt because your kid broke his arm, or steped on a piece of glass. You patched it up and life went on.

We have lost something and allowing lawyers to advertise on TV was when it started.

[ZOOMBAG]

I wrote a paper back in school about how the two national ideals to which we give the most lip service in this country, freedom and equality, often are in competition with one another. Yes, yes, "equality of opportunity" and all that, but that's a matter of perspective. I had a lot more "opportunity" due to where and to whom I was born than most people have.

I think, initially, "equality" was thrown around only as a justification to exercise liberty: a Virginia landowner and the king of England were "equal", so that justified the Virginian's exercise of liberty from the king's rule. In retrospect, that evolved quite naturally into issues regarding the Virginian and his equal slaves.

It really is a matter of how we view the notion of equality. And I do agree with you that while I was born into a relatively comfortable situation, removin some idea of equality, the solution isn't to ration out everything from the moment of birth. And that includes health care. I, too, am ok reconciling myself to the notion that some can afford better health care than others. I'm not crazy about the idea, just as I'm not all that happy about a lot of inequalities that come about not because of individual effort or lack thereof but because of the chance of particular circumstances.

But quality of health care - even whether one has access to it - really is different from quality of living room rugs - or whether one has a rug. And I do believe that the great disparity in access to even basic health care makes that basic health care more expensive for everybody. And, of course, we have to decide (if we can) what "basic health care" means in the first place.

I've been having fun with health care the last few weeks. I've developed some cervical spine issues causing some pretty severe symptoms from time to time. I've spent close to $1,000 out of my own pocket so far, and I have pretty decent insurance (not as good as it might be if I worked for a big company, but not so bad considering how small my firm is). But I have $1,000 to spend on such things. And my education and skills are such that the symptoms never prevented me from working. What if I were an uneducated manual laborer with no insurance? I could get SSDI, but only if the condition were disabling for at least a year. I could qualify for Medicaid and SSI, but only after being out of work for long enough. Meanwhile, not only am I becoming poor, my return to productive participation in the world is being delayed, so whoever might benefit from my labor isn't getting it. And that's the best-case scenario, if everything works out and I eventually get the care I need. It just seems to me that I have become more of a burden and for a longer period of time than I would have been if I'd had access to some kind of remedial treatment at the time or even before I became disabled.

Of course, knowing what I know from my work, I could just think up some reason why my condition was caused by my work and try to stick it to my employer, burdening the economy in a different way.

The biggest lie we have in a cherished document is in our own Independence declaration. "All men are created equal". Nonsense, when taken out of context with the remainder of the document. We are very decisively created UNEQUAL. We are UNIQUE.

That document and others, like the constitution, boil down to what amounts to the moral obligation our society owes itself, and our government to strive to provide. Equal opportunity, NOT equal outcomes. Given true equal opportunity and an ideal unregulated business and educational environment, we would still have roughly the same economic and social outcome we have today, which is a pyramid with the extremely wealthy and powerful at the top and the broad base of low skilled, relatively poor masses at the bottom. It is a fundamental axiom of human nature that left alone, people will seek their true level and the vast majority will be content to rest close to the bottom due to a combination of lack of natural ability, and a lack of high ambition but a MUCH higher dose of the latter.

The beauty of Capitialism is that it is the best system in human history to date to jam the most people to the highest levels.

[Bucs90]

Yes ZOOM, you are 110% right, the prescription pill abuse in this country, IMO, is just as bad as any illegal drugs coming in from Mexico, only the pills and dealers (doctors) are doing it legally. HUGELY under-reported story regarding abuse and misuse of pills in this country.

[aufan59]

Yes ZOOM, you are 110% right, the prescription pill abuse in this country, IMO, is just as bad as any illegal drugs coming in from Mexico, only the pills and dealers (doctors) are doing it legally. HUGELY under-reported story regarding abuse and misuse of pills in this country.

If you think mind altering drugs are fun:

http://sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/54170/title/Let_there_be_light

They can take light activated ion channels, connect them to neural cells, and activate the neuron via specific wavelengths. Experimentation allowed for the manipulation of memories and actions in living animals.

If prescription psychoactive drugs are bad now, wait until we see what the future of neuroscience holds for us.

EDIT: Zoombag, this is what I'm speaking of when I referred to objective medical research. These scientists are not trying to develop a drug or a cure, they are trying to fundamentally understand biological processes. While the researchers mentioned in the article try to understand Parkinsons, most of the grant money goes towards developing a drug for Parkinsons. A drug developed through a complicated synthesis path discovered through trial and error, which has an effect that can only be displayed through trial and error (a clinical trial).

Anyways, these researchers have discovered a remarkable way to objectively research neural pathways in live animals. The article is worth a read in my opinion.

[Bucs90]

The biggest lie we have in a cherished document is in our own Independence declaration. "All men are created equal". Nonsense, when taken out of context with the remainder of the document. We are very decisively created UNEQUAL. We are UNIQUE.

That document and others, like the constitution, boil down to what amounts to the moral obligation our society owes itself, and our government to strive to provide. Equal opportunity, NOT equal outcomes. .

Wow, Zoom, I missed that post of yours. Bingo.

I've always said this to people who complain about inequality: If you trace a successful person's family tree back far enough, eventually you'll find a generation or two that had to sacrifice to provide a better life for their future kids and grandkids. If that meant giving up selfish dreams to pay for their kids college, so be it. Or joining the military to provide a steady income. Whatever it may be, anyone who was born into priviledge, if you trace it back, someone laid down sacrifice to provide that.

But we have so many selfish, entitled victim mentality people now. No one wants to be THAT generation in their family tree. They want the government to be it, or they want someone else's money to be paid to fix it. I've seen too many "poor" people living in Section 8 housing, who also have 2 flat screen TV's, a Lexus out front, and go out to eat steak twice a week or buy lottery tickets on an hourly basis. Don't buy the flat screen ($1,000) and drive a used 95 Honda ($1000) rather than a new Land Rover ($30,000) and you have a $30,000 surplus- which will pay for THAT person's child to go to college. Not only that, but THAT person could also avoid getting arrested and graduate from high school, then find and keep a decent job, and have health insurance. Instead of dropping $100 a month on beer and lottery tickets, but health insurance. It's all very very possible for anyone who wants to be THAT generation that set their family tree onto a more successful path.

[Bucs90]

^^BTW, I didn't mean joining the military is only for those who need an income or can't find other work. I referred to that because my family tree goes back to the 1940's when my family was very poor, good family and hard working, but not all that my grandfather wanted. So, he joined the NAVY so he could provide for his wife. They had kids, and his NAVY training allowed him to find a nice private sector job that paid well. That allowed him to support those kids, who in turn became great parents and had stability to provide more for the grandkids and so on. It always begins somewhere, but people are too selfish to wanna be that someone.