More trivia/quiz

[Don]

For the past 40 years (1967-2006) which team(s) has/have the best in conference records for the PAC 10, SEC, and Big Ten conferences ? Also, how many teams in each conference have a winning percentage above 0.500? (There has been too much turmoil in other conferences such as Big 12 ACC and BE to include them.)

[ktffan]

For the past 40 years (1967-2006) which team(s) has/have the best in conference records for the PAC 10, SEC, and Big Ten conferences ? Also, how many teams in each conference have a winning percentage above 0.500? (There has been too much turmoil in other conferences such as Big 12 ACC and BE to include them.)


Since you come up with your own system of count 'conference games' and 'conference records', instead of counting what the conferences do, I can see where this might cause some trouble.

[jeff4bucks]

Michigan in big 10, followed by Ohio State. (very top heavy conference)
Alabama in SEC
USC in PAC 10

SEC has 7 teams over .500.

[ktffan]

Big Ten Conference Records 1967-2006 (http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/percent.php?fromyear=1967&thruyear=2006&teamname=.ALL.&IA=on&timeframe=current&records=conf&confname=Big+Ten&sortby=WP&desc=on&min=0)

PAC-10 Conference Records 1967-2006 (http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/percent.php?fromyear=1967&thruyear=2006&teamname=.ALL.&IA=on&timeframe=current&records=conf&confname=Pac-10&sortby=WP&desc=on&min=0)

SEC Conference Records 1967-2006 (http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/percent.php?fromyear=1967&thruyear=2006&teamname=.ALL.&IA=on&timeframe=current&records=conf&confname=SEC&sortby=WP&desc=on&min=0)

Those are just combined CONFERENCE records mind you. If you want to make up your own conference records, you'll get something else, but these are what you get when you look it up in the conference media guide.

[ktffan]

If you want what the teams record is against other teams from the conference (not conference records), you get this for the SEC:

SEC Records against in-conference teams 1967-2006 (http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=SEC&conf=on)

[Don]

Since you come up with your own system of count 'conference games' and 'conference records', instead of counting what the conferences do, I can see where this might cause some trouble.

your Sports Link Network! And I am using actual conference games not current conference games.

[ktffan]

your Sports Link Network! And I am using actual conference games not current conference games.

So long as you understand the difference. When I think 'conference records', I think official conference records, not necessarily games against conference teams. I know when we had the discussion before you were telling me that the SEC and Sun Belt didn't really know what their conference records were.

[buckeyejim]

Conference championship Games do NOT count as conference games. In 1980 and 1981 Alabama and Ole Miss played each other but the results did not count in the SEC standings because the SEC wanted a uniform 6 conference game schedule and those games would have meant Alabama and Ole Miss would have played 7. Also, the SEC has played 9 bowl games that matched-up 2 active SEC teams when the game was played. Same with Oklahoma and Nebraska who played each other in the Orange Bowl 27 years ago.

[Don]

So long as you understand the difference. When I think 'conference records', I think official conference records, not necessarily games against conference teams. I know when we had the discussion before you were telling me that the SEC and Sun Belt didn't really know what their conference records were.

I still think it is ridiculous that games vs teams not in a conference can be arbitrarily designated as conference games while games vs teams IN the conference are deemed non-conference games. It makes one wonder what "conference" really means.

[Don]

I'm missing something. Why is a team's record against other teams in the conference different from that team's conference record? Does it have to do with whether an opponent wasn't in the conference when a game was played but is now? Is it forfeited games? Something else?

Yes, it includes forfeited games but also games against teams NOT in the conference but are counted in the standings AS conference w-l's and also EXCLUDES games vs teams that ARE in the conference but are designated by the conference as NON-conference games for the purpose of conference standings!

The original post by KTFFAN looks at only those games that count in the conference standings as "conference" games. I think there is a difference between "conference games" and games that count in conference standings. This is where the difference lies. I believe that any game against a team IN your conference is a "conference" game and any game against a team NOT in your conference IS a NON-conference game. He has posted a link to each set and for the SEC there is a significant difference.

There is a least 3 ways of looking at "conference" records.
1) Look at conference w-l and add them up year after year. KTFFAN original way.
2) Look at games vs teams IN your conference and add them up year after year.
3) Look at teams currently in your conference and add up games against other teams currently in your conference and add them up whether or not they were in your conference when the game was played .

[Don]

Conference championship Games do NOT count as conference games. In 1980 and 1981 Alabama and Ole Miss played each other but the results did not count in the SEC standings because the SEC wanted a uniform 6 conference game schedule and those games would have meant Alabama and Ole Miss would have played 7. Also, the SEC has played 9 bowl games that matched-up 2 active SEC teams when the game was played. Same with Oklahoma and Nebraska who played each other in the Orange Bowl 27 years ago.

of the foolishness of using conference records. Even though the championship game is sanctioned by the conference and actually determines the conference champion it DOESN'T count as a "conference" game!

Another example is Alabama in 1993. The conference record of Alabama is 0-8 but Alabama's overall record is 1-12. The only win was in a BOWL game! Go figure!

[Don]

One more thing. In the mid-1960s -- maybe into the late '60s, after Tech bolted from the SEC because they thought they were too good for us, I read somewhere that because schedules had already been set years in advance, the conference members came to an agreement to count certain non-SEC games on each team's schedule as counting toward conference standings. Although I started going to Georgia games in 1968, it was a few more years before I really started following college football, since I was only 2 at the time. I'll poke around sometime and try to find some information about that.

from time to time when conferences realign. Here is a link to SEC records and if you look at the 60's they point out the games that you mention.

http://www.secsports.com/index.php?&change_well_id=2&url_article_id=194

[ktffan]

Off the top of my head, here are some reasons why playing a team in your conference would not count in your 'conference record', or as conference game. Jim and Don covered a few already.

1. Designated conference games. If a team does not play the required number of conference games in a year, the conference might designate a game against a non-conference game as a 'conference' game. This will cause an unbalanced record because only the results of one of the teams go into the standings. I-A conferences that have does this: SEC, ACC, Sun Belt, CUSA, WAC, Big West, Skyline, Big Sky (I'd have to check on the MAC, and maybe I missed some).

2. Playing a team non-conference that's in your conference. As Jim pointed out, Alabama played Ole Miss in the early 80s twice as "non-conference" games. These games did not count in the conference standings. This is also very common in the lower divisions, particularly a practice of a team playing the same team twice in a year with only one counting in the standings.

3. The conference game counts for one team. This is one of the odder things you see, and I've never seen it at I-A, but two conference teams will play each other and it'll only count as a conference game for one of the teams. Division II CIAA was pretty big for this and the I-AA SWAC did this for a bit as well. This is the biggest headache to track down.

4. Conference Championship games. They do not count in the conference standings. Never seen that happen yet.

Some conferences actually keep two conference records as well. One by division and one overall. The Lone Star has been doing that for years.

There are all sorts of different things out there if you look long enough.

[Blue Hen]

That's fascinating

[Don]

For the past 40 years (1967-2006) which team(s) has/have the best in conference records for the PAC 10, SEC, and Big Ten conferences ? Also, how many teams in each conference have a winning percentage above 0.500? (There has been too much turmoil in other conferences such as Big 12 ACC and BE to include them.)

of the original post.

Over the span 1967-2006 which team in each conference has the highest winning percentage vs other teams in the conference? I was amazed at one of the answers.

And using the same rules, how many in each conference have winning percentages above 0.500? This shows dominance in individual conferences.

There aren't too many surprises as to the teams involved but...

http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=SEC&conf=on
Team Record Points Opps Rec (-HtH)
Florida (191-89-4)--0.67958 (26.0-18.6) (1762-1204-46)--0.593
Alabama (195-93-1)--0.67647 (25.3-16.1) (1764-1243-52)--0.585
Tennessee (184-90-5)--0.66846 (26.2-18.9) (1683-1232-38)--0.576
Georgia (179-94-5)--0.65288 (24.6-17.9) (1657-1240-33)--0.571
Auburn (175-102-5)--0.62943 (23.1-18.6) (1828-1143-45)--0.614
LSU (153-113-7)--0.57326 (22.4-18.9) (1675-1199-31)--0.582
Arkansas (57-64-2)--0.47154 (22.1-23.2) (822-525-4)--0.610
Mississippi (121-158-3)--0.43440 (19.4-23.2) (1632-1310-51)--0.554
South Carolina (46-73-1)--0.38750 (19.2-24.7) (762-552-6)--0.580
Mississippi St. (79-197-2)--0.28777 (16.7-25.4) (1745-1180-42)--0.595
Kentucky (79-202-0)--0.28114 (17.5-26.5) (1724-1213-57)--0.585
Vanderbilt (42-226-3)--0.16052 (14.7-29.7) (1709-1154-47)--0.595

NOTE:UF and Bama nearly identical records (Bama has 2 more wins and 2 more losses than UF which drops the percentage below UF's).
Also note that there are 6 teams with winning percentages which of course are UF, UT and UGa in the east and Bama, LSU and Auburn in the west with only 37 wins separating team 1 from team 6. There are 5 teams fairly tightly packed with about 17 wins separating #1 from #5. Then about 20 games separating 5 from 6.

http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=Big%20Ten&conf=on
Team Record Points Opps Rec (-HtH)
Michigan (257-58-5)--0.81094 (29.4-13.6) (1768-1517-56)--0.538
Ohio St. (244-69-5)--0.77516 (29.6-14.8) (1664-1592-55)--0.511
Penn St. (69-43-0)--0.61607 (27.0-20.8) (713-513-7)--0.581
Iowa (156-156-8)--0.50000 (22.2-22.4) (1692-1596-48)--0.514
Michigan St. (156-157-7)--0.49844 (23.8-20.9) (1712-1579-52)--0.520
Purdue (155-160-5)--0.49219 (22.9-23.5) (1696-1596-55)--0.515
Wisconsin (137-177-8)--0.43789 (20.7-23.1) (1704-1613-48)--0.514
Illinois (132-179-9)--0.42656 (20.0-24.4) (1757-1547-48)--0.531
Minnesota (124-194-4)--0.39130 (20.9-26.8) (1745-1573-61)--0.525
Indiana (107-210-3)--0.33906 (19.2-27.5) (1696-1597-64)--0.515
Northwestern (94-230-2)--0.29141 (17.4-30.9) (1738-1613-61)--0.518

NOTE: PSU is a late add and if we ignore them and just focus on the Big TEN there are only 2 teams above 0.500, UM and OSU (surprise). There are only 13 games separating team 1 from 2 but 88 games separating team 2 from team 3. The Big Ten IS a 2 horse race.


http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=PAC&10&conf=on
Team Record Points Opps Rec (-HtH)
USC (216-77-7)--0.73167 (28.4-17.1) (1663-1403-50)--0.542
UCLA (186-108-9)--0.62871 (28.0-21.8) (1703-1407-54)--0.547
Washington (181-121-4)--0.59804 (25.5-21.3) (1705-1428-64)--0.543
Arizona St. (114-103-4)--0.52489 (26.3-24.5) (1248-1060-39)--0.540
.....IF 300 games played record would be 157-142-1
Stanford (149-152-6)--0.49511 (23.6-24.5) (1738-1419-61)--0.550
Arizona (109-114-6)--0.48908 (22.7-23.8) (1311-1093-33)--0.545
Oregon (134-163-2)--0.45151 (21.8-24.4) (1649-1419-57)--0.537
California (125-174-7)--0.41993 (22.2-25.2) (1726-1423-59)--0.547
Washington St. (118-181-5)--0.39638 (23.1-27.9) (1696-1427-64)--0.542
Oregon St. (85-212-6)--0.29043 (17.0-27.8) (1690-1422-56)--0.542

NOTE:Only 4 teams above 0.5000 but #1 has 30 game lead over team 2 and a 60 game lead over team 4. Here there is a #1 team..big space...#2 and #3... big space... #4.

[Hubbs]

is that Auburn has had the toughest SEC schedule over the past 40 years. So the 5 overall ranking isnt so bad.

[GatorGrad]

Sounds about right. In the SEC, there are six programs (50% of the conference) that expect to consistently compete for Conference & National Championships. The Big Ten, Big 12, and ACC have a few each, but the PAC 10 has one in USC...the only PAC 10 program to ever finish #1 in both major polls.

[GopherGuy]

http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=Big%20Ten&conf=on
Team Record Points Opps Rec (-HtH)
Michigan (257-58-5)--0.81094 (29.4-13.6) (1768-1517-56)--0.538
Ohio St. (244-69-5)--0.77516 (29.6-14.8) (1664-1592-55)--0.511
Penn St. (69-43-0)--0.61607 (27.0-20.8) (713-513-7)--0.581
Iowa (156-156-8)--0.50000 (22.2-22.4) (1692-1596-48)--0.514
Michigan St. (156-157-7)--0.49844 (23.8-20.9) (1712-1579-52)--0.520
Purdue (155-160-5)--0.49219 (22.9-23.5) (1696-1596-55)--0.515
Wisconsin (137-177-8)--0.43789 (20.7-23.1) (1704-1613-48)--0.514
Illinois (132-179-9)--0.42656 (20.0-24.4) (1757-1547-48)--0.531
Minnesota (124-194-4)--0.39130 (20.9-26.8) (1745-1573-61)--0.525
Indiana (107-210-3)--0.33906 (19.2-27.5) (1696-1597-64)--0.515
Northwestern (94-230-2)--0.29141 (17.4-30.9) (1738-1613-61)--0.518

NOTE: PSU is a late add and if we ignore them and just focus on the Big TEN there are only 2 teams above 0.500, UM and OSU (surprise). There are only 13 games separating team 1 from 2 but 88 games separating team 2 from team 3. The Big Ten IS a 2 horse race.


You can't just throw PSU out. They have been in the conference for 14 years now, so that should be a significant enough sample size to compare them to other teams. Or, if you do throw them out, then you should adjust team records to not include games against them, meaning that Michigan State and Purdue both pop up into the "over .500" category.

[ktffan]

of the original post.

Over the span 1967-2006 which team in each conference has the highest winning percentage vs other teams in the conference? I was amazed at one of the answers.

And using the same rules, how many in each conference have winning percentages above 0.500? This shows dominance in individual conferences.

There aren't too many surprises as to the teams involved but...

http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=SEC&conf=on
Team Record Points Opps Rec (-HtH)
Florida (191-89-4)--0.67958 (26.0-18.6) (1762-1204-46)--0.593
Alabama (195-93-1)--0.67647 (25.3-16.1) (1764-1243-52)--0.585
Tennessee (184-90-5)--0.66846 (26.2-18.9) (1683-1232-38)--0.576
Georgia (179-94-5)--0.65288 (24.6-17.9) (1657-1240-33)--0.571
Auburn (175-102-5)--0.62943 (23.1-18.6) (1828-1143-45)--0.614
LSU (153-113-7)--0.57326 (22.4-18.9) (1675-1199-31)--0.582
Arkansas (57-64-2)--0.47154 (22.1-23.2) (822-525-4)--0.610
Mississippi (121-158-3)--0.43440 (19.4-23.2) (1632-1310-51)--0.554
South Carolina (46-73-1)--0.38750 (19.2-24.7) (762-552-6)--0.580
Mississippi St. (79-197-2)--0.28777 (16.7-25.4) (1745-1180-42)--0.595
Kentucky (79-202-0)--0.28114 (17.5-26.5) (1724-1213-57)--0.585
Vanderbilt (42-226-3)--0.16052 (14.7-29.7) (1709-1154-47)--0.595

NOTE:UF and Bama nearly identical records (Bama has 2 more wins and 2 more losses than UF which drops the percentage below UF's).
Also note that there are 6 teams with winning percentages which of course are UF, UT and UGa in the east and Bama, LSU and Auburn in the west with only 37 wins separating team 1 from team 6. There are 5 teams fairly tightly packed with about 17 wins separating #1 from #5. Then about 20 games separating 5 from 6.

http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=Big%20Ten&conf=on
Team Record Points Opps Rec (-HtH)
Michigan (257-58-5)--0.81094 (29.4-13.6) (1768-1517-56)--0.538
Ohio St. (244-69-5)--0.77516 (29.6-14.8) (1664-1592-55)--0.511
Penn St. (69-43-0)--0.61607 (27.0-20.8) (713-513-7)--0.581
Iowa (156-156-8)--0.50000 (22.2-22.4) (1692-1596-48)--0.514
Michigan St. (156-157-7)--0.49844 (23.8-20.9) (1712-1579-52)--0.520
Purdue (155-160-5)--0.49219 (22.9-23.5) (1696-1596-55)--0.515
Wisconsin (137-177-8)--0.43789 (20.7-23.1) (1704-1613-48)--0.514
Illinois (132-179-9)--0.42656 (20.0-24.4) (1757-1547-48)--0.531
Minnesota (124-194-4)--0.39130 (20.9-26.8) (1745-1573-61)--0.525
Indiana (107-210-3)--0.33906 (19.2-27.5) (1696-1597-64)--0.515
Northwestern (94-230-2)--0.29141 (17.4-30.9) (1738-1613-61)--0.518

NOTE: PSU is a late add and if we ignore them and just focus on the Big TEN there are only 2 teams above 0.500, UM and OSU (surprise). There are only 13 games separating team 1 from 2 but 88 games separating team 2 from team 3. The Big Ten IS a 2 horse race.


http://www.sportslinknetwork.com/cfbtrivia/record.php?fry=1967&thy=2006&confname=PAC&10&conf=on
Team Record Points Opps Rec (-HtH)
USC (216-77-7)--0.73167 (28.4-17.1) (1663-1403-50)--0.542
UCLA (186-108-9)--0.62871 (28.0-21.8) (1703-1407-54)--0.547
Washington (181-121-4)--0.59804 (25.5-21.3) (1705-1428-64)--0.543
Arizona St. (114-103-4)--0.52489 (26.3-24.5) (1248-1060-39)--0.540
.....IF 300 games played record would be 157-142-1
Stanford (149-152-6)--0.49511 (23.6-24.5) (1738-1419-61)--0.550
Arizona (109-114-6)--0.48908 (22.7-23.8) (1311-1093-33)--0.545
Oregon (134-163-2)--0.45151 (21.8-24.4) (1649-1419-57)--0.537
California (125-174-7)--0.41993 (22.2-25.2) (1726-1423-59)--0.547
Washington St. (118-181-5)--0.39638 (23.1-27.9) (1696-1427-64)--0.542
Oregon St. (85-212-6)--0.29043 (17.0-27.8) (1690-1422-56)--0.542

NOTE:Only 4 teams above 0.5000 but #1 has 30 game lead over team 2 and a 60 game lead over team 4. Here there is a #1 team..big space...#2 and #3... big space... #4.


You realize that these are measuring 'true' conference records. The queries are designed for a wide variety of searches. The default conference/non-conference selection is strictly the record against teams in the conference. If you want true conference records, select the 'Official Conference Games' selection. You'll not that Alabama and Florida flip/flop on that option. Bama is aided by adding the two non-conference wins against Ole Miss, but add 3 CCG losses, where Florida is 5-2 in the CCG.

[ktffan]

is that Auburn has had the toughest SEC schedule over the past 40 years. So the 5 overall ranking isnt so bad.


Auburn not only has the 'toughest' set of opponents from the SEC, the in-conference record of conference opponent from Auburn produce a higher winning percentage than any similar measure in another conference. Of games against teams played from the same conference, this is the conference records, minus games played against that team:

Auburn (947-774-17)--0.550
Penn St. (412-367-5)--0.529
Michigan (1158-1055-43)--0.523
.
.
.
Florida (887-841-20)--0.513
Arkansas (1081-1027-19)--0.513*
LSU (859-832-10)--0.508
Mississippi St. (850-828-23)--0.506
Vanderbilt (840-821-19)--0.506
Alabama (875-857-29)--0.505
South Carolina (496-493-8)--0.502*
Tennessee (856-857-16)--0.500
Kentucky (827-847-29)--0.494
Georgia (836-864-15)--0.492
Mississippi (777-915-24)--0.460

*-includes non-SEC games.

[GatorGrad]

Bama is aided by adding the two non-conference wins against Ole Miss, but add 3 CCG losses, where Florida is 5-2 in the CCG.

Am I the only one who thinks that it is silly that SEC Championship Games are not included as official SEC games? Explain that one...

[ktffan]

Am I the only one who thinks that it is silly that SEC Championship Games are not included as official SEC games? Explain that one...

I'm talking about conference records. CCGs are never counted as conference games. If they should or shouldn't is irrelevant to me. The fact is they aren't counted.

I suspect that tagging an extra loss against the conference champion would be unfair to a team that lossed, dropping them down in the standings. Conference records tend to be set up so that all teams have about equal number of games.

[buckeyejim]

The conference championship game is kind of weird.

1. It's NOT a conference game
2. It's NOT a non-conference game
3. It's NOT a bowl game
4. It MUST have (in my opinion) it's own unique column to separate it from the other columns but you hardly ever see it.

In my records, I actually list any designated/appointed conference games vs a non-league opponent in a footnote and I subtract it when I compile all-time conference W-L standings. All of my all-time conference standings come out to an even .500 because of this as well as changing BOTH schools records when there has been a forfeit. Some may disagree but that's the way I do it. I just feel that all-time conference W-L standings should count conference vs conference and not any vs a non-conference opponent.

[Don]

The conference championship game is kind of weird.

1. It's NOT a conference game
2. It's NOT a non-conference game
3. It's NOT a bowl game
4. It MUST have (in my opinion) it's own unique column to separate it from the other columns but you hardly ever see it.

In my records, I actually list any designated/appointed conference games vs a non-league opponent in a footnote and I subtract it when I compile all-time conference W-L standings. All of my all-time conference standings come out to an even .500 because of this as well as changing BOTH schools records when there has been a forfeit. Some may disagree but that's the way I do it. I just feel that all-time conference W-L standings should count conference vs conference and not any vs a non-conference opponent.

I think is should be a conference game. The conference record will still be 0.500. I also believe games should NOT be forfeited AFTER the game. To me it's as if a mugger beats me to a pulp and puts my eye out and then a Judge rules that because the mugger did something illegal he will declare that I CAN SEE again. You can punish the offender but you can't undo what they did. Don't change the records.

[buckeyejim]

I think is should be a conference game. The conference record will still be 0.500. I also believe games should NOT be forfeited AFTER the game. To me it's as if a mugger beats me to a pulp and puts my eye out and then a Judge rules that because the mugger did something illegal he will declare that I CAN SEE again. You can punish the offender but you can't undo what they did. Don't change the records.

Obviously, this is your opinion but I DO think that games SHOULD be forfeited when a program is caught cheating or breaking the rules of sportsmanship.

[GopherGuy]

Obviously, this is your opinion but I DO think that games SHOULD be forfeited when a program is caught cheating or breaking the rules of sportsmanship.

I agree 100%. If you go back and look at videotape, the 1997 Gopher basketball team played in the Final Four. However, we were cheating and we don't deserve that accomplishment, so it has rightfully been taken away from us.

[buckeyejim]

I agree 100%. If you go back and look at videotape, the 1997 Gopher basketball team played in the Final Four. However, we were cheating and we don't deserve that accomplishment, so it has rightfully been taken away from us.

Same with the Ohio State Final Four team from 1999, the 1993 Alabama football team or the Mississippi State football teams from the mid '70's. Forfeits are a way of punishing accomplishments that were achieved by breaking the rules.