UNC Football

[GatorGrad]

I was thinking the other day...why hasn't UNC Football been able to win? I would think that UNC has the money, resources, location, etc to compete in the ACC. They are a very popular school with top-notch academics in a great college town. What's not to like if you're a recruit? Why can't they win? Other than tradition, what does say Tennessee offer than UNC could not? Same area of the country, big league conference, etc.

Am I the only one that thinks that UNC is a sleeping giant about to be woken up if Butch Davis can work his recruiting magic? I know they had some good years with Mack Brown, but I see no reason why UNC couldn't have long-term success under the right leadership. Maybe Stumpy Stew can enlighten me. What's holding UNC Football back from being a top 20 program?

[jeff4bucks]

You're not the only one that thinks UNC could win big. They have everything to offer-great college town with reasonably close access to big cities, facilities, academics, etc. Butch Davis will have them in the top 10 within 3 years. Although he'll have to recruit outside the Carolinas since that area isn't a huge hotbed for recruits.
Mack Brown was able to land them in the top 10 a few years, even top 5 in 1997 (Brown's last year there). Before that, you have to go back to LT days when they were real good.
Part of the problem may be that UNC (and the state of North Carolina in general) is so basketball-crazed. Huge tradition at UNC, especially with a title only 2 years ago. Football is there to pass the time until hoops begins.

I really think UNC did great in getting Butch Davis and they can compete for ACC titles, maybe more....

[HellYeahHokie]

I just get the sense that UNC isn't 100% behind becoming a football school. They've made some efforts. They tried to hire Beamer in 2001, and they hired Butch Davis this year. Their stadium is nice (not great, but nice). But I just don't think the administration is really in favor of it.

UNC was one of the schools stonewalling on ACC expansion. Why would they do this? I think its because they were content. They had their basketball program raking in money, and the football team won enough to keep fans amused.

So its more than just paying a big time coach. It's about supporting an atmosphere that says "We're a big time program" Their limited tailgating policy doesn't help fans get in the mood. And if you don't have a great atmosphere inside (and outside) the stadium, its harder to sell recruits.

Heck, Virginia Tech has had some great success, but still isn't really a perennial Top 10 team. But recruits who come to a game at VT are sold, because they can see the enthusiasm the school has for the team. Same with Florida, or Tennessee, or Ohio State, or any of those schools that have that great college atmosphere. That excites kids to want to play in front of those crowds.

We'll see if Butch Davis can manage. He's resume might excite enough people to help create the right tone down there. I had a great time when I went to the VT game last year, but I wouldn't call the environment very intimidating.

Plus...baby blue? How aggressive can you be playing in baby blue.

[Stumpy Stew]

That's a question Carolina fans have been asking since Mack Brown left. It could be due to the coaches that replaced him just were not good X's and O's guys. I mean John Bunting was a great guy. Loved recruiting, loved coaching, loved the school, but never could get the wins or the most out of his talent (I mean Pitt. Steeler Parker is a leading NFL rusher who did not lead the ACC). It is a great place, great atmosphere and good resources. And if the program is on top, the best NC players should stay here.

Hopefully Butch Davis can turn it around. Not only bring winning and good football to Chapel Hill, but have good players who are also good students (to keep the faculty senate happy)

And as for Carolina blue not being tough, don't bend over Rameses with his Carolina Blue horns. LOL>

[GatorGrad]

Plus...baby blue? How aggressive can you be playing in baby blue.

Carolina's blue is similar to Tennessee orange to me...

Seriously, it's not like Tennessee is loaded with high school football prospects, so they have to recruit nationally and all over the east. I see no reason why UNC could not do the same with the right coach. Maybe Butch Davis will be the right guy. I think it would be exciting for UNC to be one of the top ACC Football Programs.

[Blue Hen]

GG & Jeff,

You both cited UNC's excellent academic reputation as one reason why UNC should be better. How is a university's academic reputation conducive to winning big in today's CF climate ?? It might be just the opposite. The type of kids you need to win big in today's CF are better suited to very low academic standards.

[jeff4bucks]

The basketball team won a title recently, doesn't UNC have the same standards for hoops players as for football players?? Todays college basketball is not a whole lot different than football...

Hen- I was saying that UNC is a fine all around school. Lots to offer, including a great education, wasn't spefically referring to that as the reason why they are struggling in football. That should just be a selling point to recruits. Indeed, many recruits are better suited to lower standards.

out of curiosity, do you think lower academic standards only applies to "big time factories"??

[Blue Hen]

The basketball team won a title recently, doesn't UNC have the same standards for hoops players as for football players?? Todays college basketball is not a whole lot different than football...

Hen- I was saying that UNC is a fine all around school. Lots to offer, including a great education, wasn't spefically referring to that as the reason why they are struggling in football. That should just be a selling point to recruits. Indeed, many recruits are better suited to lower standards.

out of curiosity, do you think lower academic standards only applies to "big time factories"??

No, I don't. Good point (UNC hoops)

[Don]

Mack Brown was able to land them in the top 10 a few years, even top 5 in 1997 (Brown's last year there). Before that, you have to go back to LT days when they were real good.
I really think UNC did great in getting Butch Davis and they can compete for ACC titles, maybe more....

will have things a little tougher than Mack.

In the 10 years that Mack was at NC he played only 25 ranked regular season opponents or 2.5 per year and only 4 were ooc. Thanks to the "new ACC" and better scheduling, in the past 9 years NC has played 36 ranked regular season opponents or 4 per year and 9 were ooc. In 08 NC's ooc schedule includes Colorado, Rutgers, and ND (plus a body-bag game TBA, I hope for their sake).

[GatorGrad]

GG & Jeff,

You both cited UNC's excellent academic reputation as one reason why UNC should be better. How is a university's academic reputation conducive to winning big in today's CF climate ?? It might be just the opposite. The type of kids you need to win big in today's CF are better suited to very low academic standards.

I cited UNC's academics as one of several reasons. Not the only or main reason. My point is that the school has a lot to offer INCLUDING an education from one of the best public universities in the country. I wasn't saying that this was the main reason why they should be good at football.

Ever since Michael Jordan came through, UNC has just been viewed as one of the "cool" public all around schools to many people. Sort of like a UCLA, Texas, or Michigan. Maybe it's just for basketball though and nobody really cares about their football program. But I think the right coach could have UNC as a top 20 program eventually.

[Blue Hen]

I agree ...a genuine sleeping giant. My question or point, I guess, was that the type of kids that you need to achieve FB glory in today's climate...most of those kids don't care about academics or have the apptitude for legitimate academic achievement.

[GatorGrad]

Well, considering the % of college football players that actually end up making a living playing pro football, I hope that SOME kids see the value in a college education. In fact, I know that some do. It's not like every kid on every "football factory" roster couldn't care less about school. I think there are more legit student athletes on these teams than some give credit for.

[Blue Hen]

My guess at the % of legitimate student-athletes, on FB scholarship at the WAAC factories...like VT & FL.....maybe 25%...and of course, almost all the walk-ons are legitimate student-athletes.

[copycat]

Biggest problem they have is recruiting... NC is not a talent rich state, and there are 5 1-A programs there (WF, UNC, Duke, NCSU, and ECU) to spread it around. When Brown was there WF, Duke, NCSU and ECU weren't that good (ECU had a few good years though around that time) but it seemed that all the talent went to UNC. Since the other programs have stepped up it's been at UNC's expense.

[HellYeahHokie]

Biggest problem they have is recruiting... NC is not a talent rich state, and there are 5 1-A programs there (WF, UNC, Duke, NCSU, and ECU) to spread it around. When Brown was there WF, Duke, NCSU and ECU weren't that good (ECU had a few good years though around that time) but it seemed that all the talent went to UNC. Since the other programs have stepped up it's been at UNC's expense.

Well, if Butch can tap into the Tidewater Virginia talent pool, there's plenty of good players there. Most of VT's players come from the tidewater area, and they've had some pretty good success. Butch would have to be able to break into that area, but he has the credentials to do it.

He can also probably tap South Florida because of his success at Miami. Chuckie was able to recruit Florida really well when he was at NCSU, because of his connections. But you still have to win games to keep the pipeline open. Butch can probably do that. Chuckie couldn't

[sc69er]

I was thinking the other day...why hasn't UNC Football been able to win? I would think that UNC has the money, resources, location, etc to compete in the ACC. They are a very popular school with top-notch academics in a great college town. What's not to like if you're a recruit? Why can't they win? Other than tradition, what does say Tennessee offer than UNC could not? Same area of the country, big league conference, etc.

Am I the only one that thinks that UNC is a sleeping giant about to be woken up if Butch Davis can work his recruiting magic? I know they had some good years with Mack Brown, but I see no reason why UNC couldn't have long-term success under the right leadership. Maybe Stumpy Stew can enlighten me. What's holding UNC Football back from being a top 20 program?

UNC is a basketball school and as a general rule BB schools don't do well in Football. The great Bear Bryant was coach at KTY in the40's and 50's, never had a loosing season, won the SEC and Sugar Bowl in 1950 and according to the Bear " The Caddilac dealer gave Ad Rupp the new car" Thats when he started looking for a new job. Kansas, Indiana, and Duke come to mind as other examples. Now UF won both football and BB championships in the same year, an awesome accomplishment but don't expect that to be repeated this century. What is more intresting to me is the case of South Carolina. Steve Spurrior is not the first Coach who won a national championship to be hired by the Gamecocks to turn around there football program. They Hired Paul Deitsel from LSU in the 60's. Paul had won a national championship at LSU with Billy Cannon, Johnny robinson , and the chinese bandits!! He didn't do squat at South Carolina and I will be surprised if Spurior does much.

[jeff4bucks]

[QUOTE=sc69er;4163]UNC is a basketball school and as a general rule BB schools don't do well in Football.
QUOTE]

Times have changed. UF is the obvious example of succeeding in both sports. Ohio State is the other choice as well, also...Oklahoma, LSU, Texas have all won titles in football this century, as well as fielding some strong basketball teams. USC will be next, with OJ Mayo heading there.

[GatorGrad]

I think it is easier for a football power to raise the level of their basketball program than vice-versa. If you are a football power, you already have the resources including money, fan base, etc. Whereas you don't have to have ridiculous money or resources to build a basketball program. You only need 2-3 good players to make a run in basketball. It takes a lot more to do the same in football. I could see UNC raising the level of their football program because they have the resources, fan base, etc. Compare this to Duke, a great basketball program but a much smaller fan base and budget...they really have no chance of sustaining success in football.

[sc69er]

I think it is easier for a football power to raise the level of their basketball program than vice-versa. If you are a football power, you already have the resources including money, fan base, etc. Whereas you don't have to have ridiculous money or resources to build a basketball program. You only need 2-3 good players to make a run in basketball. It takes a lot more to do the same in football. I could see UNC raising the level of their football program because they have the resources, fan base, etc. Compare this to Duke, a great basketball program but a much smaller fan base and budget...they really have no chance of sustaining success in football.

As the Gators showed this past year you need more than 2-3 good players to win the NC in basketball--you need 6-7 and you need to keep them in school for more than one year as the Gators did. The perineal powers stock pile talent and have the 6-9 players you need to suceed but lately there has been a problem in keeping them around long enough. OJ Mayo will be at USC for one year only, no championships in sight

[Blue Hen]

Yeah, I hope Davis stays out of Frank's recruiting 'honey hole'. Right now there is only 1 single Tar Heel from Tidewater area.

[Blue Hen]

A side note on that LSU mythical national championship won in 1958. The University of Delaware coaching staff went down to LSU and installed their famous 'Wing-T' offense at Paul Deitzel's request. UD should get part of that MNC. Same thing a few years later. Ara Parseghian used the Delaware Wing-T to win one of those pretend NCs for Notre Dame.

[Blue Hen]

Guys,
Always remember....The Florida Gators would not even have had an opportunity to compete for a national basketball championship in 06 or 07 if that sport had a moronic BCS type system. Duke and Uconn would have been appointed directly to the 06 champ game and Kansas and Ohio State directly to the 07 champ game. CF's championship system is the most fraudulent and ridiculous in the history of world team sports.

[GatorGrad]

Guys,
Always remember....The Florida Gators would not even have had an opportunity to compete for a national basketball championship in 06 or 07 if that sport had a moronic BCS type system. Duke and Uconn would have been appointed directly to the 06 champ game and Kansas and Ohio State directly to the 07 champ game. CF's championship system is the most fraudulent and ridiculous in the history of world team sports.

Hen, one could make a case that Florida's 07 team would have still played for the title had there been a BCS system in place when you consider that they were the #1 overall seed in the tournament. Who knows what the computers would have spit out. Perhaps they would have been in the top two, perhaps not. But your point is well taken.

[jeff4bucks]

Guys,
Always remember....The Florida Gators would not even have had an opportunity to compete for a national basketball championship in 06 or 07 if that sport had a moronic BCS type system. Duke and Uconn would have been appointed directly to the 06 champ game and Kansas and Ohio State directly to the 07 champ game. CF's championship system is the most fraudulent and ridiculous in the history of world team sports.


Do you think a playoff always determines the best team??

[Blue Hen]

What's that mean......"best team" ? I've never , ever seen that defined.

[CJHawkeyes]

What's that mean......"best team" ? I've never , ever seen that defined.


It means absolutely nothing. The problem is those college football fans who have been brainwashed by polls to believe it means everything. That it means the same thing as champion or winner. I'm still amazed at how many people argue against a playoff because a playoff will not necessarily be won by the best team as if anyone suggested it would.

[Blue Hen]

Exactly CJH

If we, collectively, want to be 'thinking' college sports fans we need to purge the fictional and abstract concept of "best team" from our posts and mind sets.

First step - stop worshiping opinion polls

[Blue Hen]

The computer geeks are only 1/3 of the formula. I'm sure the Gators would have been shut out.
...but I've always had more faith in NCAA selection/seeding committees than pollsters

[GatorGrad]

Exactly CJH

If we, collectively, want to be 'thinking' college sports fans we need to purge the fictional and abstract concept of "best team" from our posts and mind sets.

First step - stop worshiping opinion polls

Yes...can we all agree to ban the words "best team" and any reference to polls on this forum?

[Blue Hen]

Lead the way in this campaign, GG !!! .... :-)

[jeff4bucks]

Guys,
Always remember....The Florida Gators would not even have had an opportunity to compete for a national basketball championship in 06 or 07 if that sport had a moronic BCS type system. Duke and Uconn would have been appointed directly to the 06 champ game and Kansas and Ohio State directly to the 07 champ game. CF's championship system is the most fraudulent and ridiculous in the history of world team sports.


alright Hen, so lets hear your solution. There ARE polls in college basketball, which determines seeding for tourney, etc. How would football seeding be determined? Where would they play? I wouldn't compare college football to college basketball anyway. each individual football game counts moreso to the season that college basketball games do, simply because there are fewer football games and less margin of error. Some even see the regular season as a playoff of sorts. Even if you threw away all preseason polls in football, as the season plays out, the W/L records will speak for themselves...

[GatorGrad]

There may be polls in college hoops, but they don't determine the NCAA Tournament seedings - they are one of several tools that the committee considers including RPI. I actually think a committee approach would be better than the BCS rankings, which rely 2/3 on the polls, for college football, even if it were only a 4-team playoff. I don't have a problem with polls being used as a tool for a committee, but I do have a problem with them actually directly determining the standings. But of course CJ's objective standings formula would be better than all of the above!

[Blue Hen]

First off, what makes you think polls determine the seedings in the NCAA basketball tournament ? That's absolutely incorrect. Wasn't Florida the first overall seed ?....yet they were not even #1 or 2 in the final polls.
Who knows how the selection and seeding committees do their work? There are about 8 or 9 of those guys. They meet in private.....probably consider W-L record, SOS, road performance, the NCAA's own computer ranking system (RPI ). This committee might look at other assorted ranking systems , but lots of discussion is involved. NCAA selection committees do a nice job, imo...but popular opinion polls don't determine anything...thank goodness.
D1A CF is the only NCAA sport in which pollsters decide championships.

How would I do it.....for FB ? Nothing to it. 11 slots would be automatically filled by the league champs........no opinions or voting necessary. I'd leave the 5 'at large' selections and seeding up to a qualified committee.....just like the NCAA has been doing it in their FB championship divisions for almost 30 years now.

[GatorGrad]

D1A CF is the only NCAA sport in which pollsters decide who plays for so called 'championships'.

They only "championship" that polls decide in D1A is the Mythical National Championship. However, there are 11 legitimate D1A CONFERENCE championships decided on the field with real standings!

[Blue Hen]

But unlike Florida and Georgia, I don't think the State of North Carolina allows Spring HS Football practice. That is a huge factor in producing FB players/talent. Kids who participate in Spring ball for 4 years get the equivalent of an entire extra year of coaching.

[GatorGrad]

Our QB (Chris Leak) came from the state of North Carolina...

[Stumpy Stew]

There's lots of talent in NC. As was posted earlier, a lot of NC HS all staters are on CF rosters in the SEC and across the country. And if UNC, or even NCSU and Duke, were to start playing winning football and fighting for the ACC title and going to the BCS, some of these would stay home.

And Hen is right, NC has no HS spring football practice. We are a weird state. The HS sport that draws the most fans, generates the most money and passion is football. For colleges, it's basketball. But go to the pro level, football again. The only explanation is success. In the 30's 40's and 50's, college football was king here. But in the 50's it started to slide and basketball started producing national contenders, so our support went to that. But football is still a big thing here.

[jeff4bucks]

part of the reason Leak went to UF was to spite Phil Fulmer and the way his older brother was treated at UT

[CJHawkeyes]

First off, what makes you think polls determine the seedings in the NCAA basketball tournament ? That's absolutely incorrect. Wasn't Florida the first overall seed ?....yet they were not even #1 or 2 in the final polls.
Who knows how the selection and seeding committees do their work? There are about 8 or 9 of those guys. They meet in private.....probably consider W-L record, SOS, road performance, the NCAA's own computer ranking system (RPI ). This committee might look at other assorted ranking systems , but lots of discussion is involved. NCAA selection committees do a nice job, imo...but popular opinion polls don't determine anything...thank goodness.
D1A CF is the only NCAA sport in which pollsters decide championships.

How would I do it.....for FB ? Nothing to it. 11 slots would be automatically filled by the league champs........no opinions or voting necessary. I'd leave the 5 'at large' selections and seeding up to a qualified committee.....just like the NCAA has been doing it in their FB championship divisions for almost 30 years now.

This is probably one of the few issues we disagree on. While I think committees give more thought to placing teams than do pollsters, the results are still arbitrarily subjective and influenced by brand name mentality and many illogical arguments. I remember CM Newton saying he often favored the team he would least like to play when he served on the BB committee. However, that team isn't necessarily more successful according to any particular standard. The BB committee seeded 18-12 Stanford higher than a Davidson team that was nine games better. Stanford was thumped by Louisville whereas Davidson nearly upset four seed Maryland. The rules I advocate for football would have denied Stanford a berth and made Davidson a four seed. Two of the biggest upsets based on actual seeds, VCU over Duke and Winthrop over ND, were not even upsets based on my system. Of course, this doesn't mean my system is more right than another objective system that might produce results more similar to the BB committee. However, whenever asked to justify a selection or seeding, the chairman's only response was that a different committee could have chosen differently. That makes for a horrible method for determining which teams have "earned" an opportunity to compete for a championship as far as I'm concerned. Subjectivity just isn't necessary and I think, where BB is concerned, stands in the way of BB doing more to reward higher seeds for being higher seeds such as homecourt advantage which I would like to see to increase the importance of the regular season. However, no committee probably wants the responsibility of deciding HCA between a four and five seed and any "mistakes" are diminished by neutral courts.

[Blue Hen]

Good points........as usual, CJH