Reasons to not be supportive of the Florida Gators

[Jim]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=AmBvJTdCB_c_7wJ1IUfd.AYcvrYF?slug=dw-spikes110209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Wow, trying to blind a player and the Gators basically laugh it off. Coach and player are probably asking, "Hey, did we win?. We did !!! Then f**k 'em".

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/11/ncaaf/1257199171.jpg (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=AmBvJTdCB_c_7wJ1IUfd.AYcvrYF?slug=dw-spikes110209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

[NCT]

Meyer suspended Spikes for half of the Vandy game.

[GatorGrad]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=AmBvJTdCB_c_7wJ1IUfd.AYcvrYF?slug=dw-spikes110209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Wow, trying to blind a player and the Gators basically laugh it off. Coach and player are probably asking, "Hey, did we win?. We did !!! Then f**k 'em".


Who laughed it off? Spikes has been suspended for the first half next week, and my guess is that he won't play at all...and he shouldn't IMO. That was disgraceful no doubt. That said, he obviously lost his cool in the heat of the moment in a very emotional game. He is a senior and this is the first time he's ever pulled a stunt like that. He claims to have had the same thing done to him earlier in the game and got his hair pulled after his helmet came off. He let his emotions get the best of him. Also, check out this late cheap shot hit on Tebow well after a hand-off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDvFbD7wIAg

No flag or suspension from that play. It was a chippy game with some cheap shots on both ends. Spikes just got caught. Doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be punished, just saying that he wasn't the only one in the wrong. Lord knows what goes on underneath those piles in any given football game.

[Blue Hen]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=AmBvJTdCB_c_7wJ1IUfd.AYcvrYF?slug=dw-spikes110209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Wow, trying to blind a player and the Gators basically laugh it off. Coach and player are probably asking, "Hey, did we win?. We did !!! Then f**k 'em".

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/11/ncaaf/1257199171.jpg (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=AmBvJTdCB_c_7wJ1IUfd.AYcvrYF?slug=dw-spikes110209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Dunbth factor...low classness...winning at all all costs..... hard to pull for the Gators, although Tebow is admirable.

[ZOOMBAG]

Who laughed it off? Spikes has been suspended for the first half next week, and my guess is that he won't play at all...and he shouldn't IMO. That was disgraceful no doubt. That said, he obviously lost his cool in the heat of the moment in a very emotional game. He is a senior and this is the first time he's ever pulled a stunt like that. He claims to have had the same thing done to him earlier in the game and got his hair pulled after his helmet came off. He let his emotions get the best of him. Also, check out this late cheap shot hit on Tebow well after a hand-off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDvFbD7wIAg

No flag or suspension from that play. It was a chippy game with some cheap shots on both ends. Spikes just got caught. Doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be punished, just saying that he wasn't the only one in the wrong. Lord knows what goes on underneath those piles in any given football game.

Players that wear their hair like that DESERVE to have the sh!t pulled out by the roots..... If he doesn't like his hair pulled, cut the crap off.

[GatorGrad]

Players that wear their hair like that DESERVE to have the sh!t pulled out by the roots..... If he doesn't like his hair pulled, cut the crap off.

If you're trying to tackle a player carrying the ball, sure...the hair is fair game to pull.

But not as a defender by an offensive lineman after your helmet comes off IMO.

[NCT]

The cheap shot on Tebow was certainly cheap and deserved a flag, maybe more.

But man, it looks like Spikes lost his keys in Ealey's helmet. I may be wrong, but to me, that went waaaay beyond "chippy".

And Tebow's having apparently "excused" Spikes's conduct with his own complaints about the game changed my mind about his character in one statement. I guess he's an Old Testament Christian.

[Blue Hen]

NCT, I feel exactly the same way...kinda crushed about Tebow's statements.


Also , had trashy punk Spikes actually blinded the Georgia kid, Meyer probably would have suspended him for 3 quarters vs Vandy.
Look at the difference in 'class' between Oregon's Chip Kelly and UF's Urban Meyer regarding stupid, thugish player behavior.

[Jim]

So Spikes claims to have had it done to him ... earlier in the game? ... and did he complain or squint or yell out in pain? I don't recall. And if it did occur, was it the same player who commited the foul? The gators are assuming the role of the criminal Miami Hurricanes when under Jimmy "The Prick" Johnson.

[kocurt]

Like I have been telling you guys. The MAJOR programs and LANDMARK football teams do it with class. They have classy coaches, classy players, and they hold the players accountable when they step out of line. Heck, Bob Stoops basically threw away a shot at the national title to keep his team in line. In the SEC? Not so much. Its a 'win at all costs" league that focuses on money. Corruption is rampant there and the fact that the premier upstart team (UF) does not seem to understand what happened and more importantly what SHOULD happen, just illustrates my point. They just dont get it. A BLATANT and INTENTIONALL attempt to permanently damage and maim a player deserves HUGE punishment. But this is the SEC and UF, they wont let a little thing like ethics, morality, and what is RIGHT get in the way of a few $ and a win. Meyer went from one of my favorite coaches (when he was at Utah) to one of those guys on the level of Pete Carroll or Jimmy johnson. Thug U really IS back. Its just called Florida now.

[Spice1]

As a Canes fan, I would like to point out that the JJ era Canes were only criminals OFF the field.

[kocurt]

Thug U is back!! ITs just called UF now. Watch this program sink into the depths of corruption over the next few seasons. I predict they will soon be on probation, have more players in prison than on the field, and a couple more championships!!

[HellYeahHokie]

WThat said, he obviously lost his cool in the heat of the moment in a very emotional game. He is a senior and this is the first time he's ever pulled a stunt like that..


I suspect its the first time he's ever been caught.

[GatorGrad]

NCT & BH,

So Tebow's one comment about the fact that there was some nonsense on both sides in this game changes your entire perception of his character? That is unfortunate and pretty unfair IMO. For four years now, Tebow has had things done to him under a pile...from ball twisting to eye gouging to rib punching, spitting, etc. He's been a pretty good sport about it. Never complained or retaliated in any way to any of it. Didn't complain at all about this hit from the game either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDvFbD7wIAg

I guarantee that Tebow does not agree with what Spikes did. I think he was just pointing out that this wasn't anything out of the norm of what goes on under the huddle which is true...Spikes is just the one that got caught for it and has been punished. His real punishment is not missing the Vandy game however...it is the fact that he now has to live with being viewed as a "dirty player." Like Darnell Dockett at FSU. His great four-year career is going to be tainted by this incident, fair or not. He gave up being a first round pick to come back for his senior season and in game #8, he really tarnished his legacy in the minds of most fans across the country.

[GatorGrad]

But man, it looks like Spikes lost his keys in Ealey's helmet. I may be wrong, but to me, that went waaaay beyond "chippy".


There is actually an interesting story floating around some Gator message boards. Apparently someone who knows some of the players got the "scoop" and is claiming that Ealey had spit on Spikes on the prior play or earlier in the game. One story is that it was the prior play and that Spikes rubbed off Ealey's spit with his hand and then was trying to rub it back in his own face after the next play. The other story is that it happened earlier in the game and Spikes spit on his own hand and was rubbing it on Ealey to get him back. I admit that I have no idea how accurate this is and could be 100% made up. But it would explain why Ealey shows no signs of being hurt, didn't squint, didn't complain, and basically acted as if nothing had happened after Spikes' fingers had entered his facemask. If Spikes was truly trying to injure him by poking at his eyeballs, it would seem as if he had a good chance of being successful or at least Ealey would have reacted more. Obviously rubbing spit on someone's eyes is disgusting in itself so either way, he deserved to be suspended and deserves the embarrassment. But getting back at someone in a childish "spit battle" doesn't seem as bad as trying to injure a player. My guess is that if there was 100% proof that he was trying to injure Ealey, or Ealey was injured after the incident, that Spikes would have been suspended for much longer.

[Don]

Like I have been telling you guys. The MAJOR programs and LANDMARK football teams do it with class. They have classy coaches, classy players, and they hold the players accountable when they step out of line. Heck, Bob Stoops basically threw away a shot at the national title to keep his team in line. In the SEC? Not so much. Its a 'win at all costs" league that focuses on money. Corruption is rampant there and the fact that the premier upstart team (UF) does not seem to understand what happened and more importantly what SHOULD happen, just illustrates my point. They just dont get it. A BLATANT and INTENTIONALL attempt to permanently damage and maim a player deserves HUGE punishment. But this is the SEC and UF, they wont let a little thing like ethics, morality, and what is RIGHT get in the way of a few $ and a win. Meyer went from one of my favorite coaches (when he was at Utah) to one of those guys on the level of Pete Carroll or Jimmy johnson. Thug U really IS back. Its just called Florida now.

the Saints-Falcons game last night? The crew was having a good time with this story. At one point someone asks "So, what do you think is happening at the bottom of that scrum?" They all laughed and one said something like, "Gee, I don't know but someone might get a 20 minute suspension."

[Doc]

I went through this same crap in 2003 when Robert Reynolds, as some put it, tried to choke Jim Sorgi to death. Many said he should be suspended for the year, kicked off the team, etc. Tressel suspended him for a game and did some 'internal corrections' and it wasn't good enough for everybody. I didn't see what Spikes did so I really can't comment on it but I'm sure Urban Meyer is making sure he knows that type of action won't be tolerated, even if it may have been provoked. As I tell my 5th grade team all the time - you have to big bigger than that - don't stoop to their level.

[BossTalker]

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/11/ncaaf/1257199171.jpg (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=AmBvJTdCB_c_7wJ1IUfd.AYcvrYF?slug=dw-spikes110209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

When did he get out? Looks like a bunch of spiders are having a meeting on his head! That coach is loving it...stank breath and all...

[Blue Hen]

NCT & BH,

So Tebow's one comment about the fact that there was some nonsense on both sides in this game changes your entire perception of his character? That is unfortunate and pretty unfair IMO. For four years now, Tebow has had things done to him under a pile...from ball twisting to eye gouging to rib punching, spitting, etc. He's been a pretty good sport about it. Never complained or retaliated in any way to any of it. Didn't complain at all about this hit from the game either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDvFbD7wIAg

I guarantee that Tebow does not agree with what Spikes did. I think he was just pointing out that this wasn't anything out of the norm of what goes on under the huddle which is true...Spikes is just the one that got caught for it and has been punished. His real punishment is not missing the Vandy game however...it is the fact that he now has to live with being viewed as a "dirty player." Like Darnell Dockett at FSU. His great four-year career is going to be tainted by this incident, fair or not. He gave up being a first round pick to come back for his senior season and in game #8, he really tarnished his legacy in the minds of most fans across the country.

No , it doesn't change my entire perception and respect for Tebow...just lowers it a few notches.

[HellYeahHokie]

I went through this same crap in 2003 when Robert Reynolds, as some put it, tried to choke Jim Sorgi to death. Many said he should be suspended for the year, kicked off the team, etc. Tressel suspended him for a game and did some 'internal corrections' and it wasn't good enough for everybody. I didn't see what Spikes did so I really can't comment on it but I'm sure Urban Meyer is making sure he knows that type of action won't be tolerated, even if it may have been provoked. As I tell my 5th grade team all the time - you have to big bigger than that - don't stoop to their level.

That guy should have been suspended for a year for that completely out-of-line chocking incident.

Oregon didn't hesitate to suspend one of their star players for the season for throwing a punch against a player that was almost certainly provoking him.

[GatorGrad]

No , it doesn't change my entire perception and respect for Tebow...just lowers it a few notches.

Still think you're being a bit harsh on him for one statement that was basically just saying that the other team had some dirty plays too. Also, I am pretty sure that Tebow's quote was in response to more general question about the activity going on...when Tim was asked specifically about the Spikes incident, he said something along the lines of "i don't know, i didn't see the play"....so even if Tim was commenting on that play, it was from the perspective of someone backing up his teammate, and someone who had not even seen a replay of it, or had known what occurred. In addition to the Spikes/Ealey incident, here's what we know occurred:

The nasty facemask toss-down out of bounds on Brandon James.
Brandon Spikes getting his helmet knocked off and hair pulled.
Joe Haden getting popped under the facemask by Ealey after a play.
Tebow getting drilled well after a hand-off in the video posted above.
Lord knows what else went on under those piles after a Tebow run.

It was an emotional rivalry game and mistakes were made on both sides. Spikes was caught and was punished. You can say that 1/2 a game wasn't enough and I agree - should have been one full game. But at least he was punished at all. I've seen dirty plays go unpunished. Had Ealey been injured, I imagine he would have been punished even more. Ealey was fine which maybe makes the story that Spikes was "getting him back with some spit in his face" seem possible and less damning than if he was actually trying to gouge his eyes.

[Doc]

That guy should have been suspended for a year for that completely out-of-line chocking incident.

Oregon didn't hesitate to suspend one of their star players for the season for throwing a punch against a player that was almost certainly provoking him.

But I support the way it was handled by coach Tressel.

How many chances did Marcus Vick get at VT...I recall he flipped off the crowd, stomped on an opposing player, sat out an entire year due to other transgressions and came back and started every game the following year - and coach Beamer also handled the two players guys sexually assaulted the coed in a stern manner - if I remember they were welcomed back to the team. Here's a link to refresh your memory...if Reynolds should have been kicked off the team, these guys should have been castrated and locked up for life...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Morrison

[GatorGrad]

The Georgia RB himself (Ealey) says that he didn't think Spikes should have been suspended at all:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4619952

Anyone care to guess why this might be? Why would he publicly defend an opposing rival player that apparently was "gouging his eyes?"

[GatorGrad]

Here is the Williams late late hit on Tebow with actual commentary from Verne and Gary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cERuyek02wA&feature=player_embedded

And a picture from the game with Ealey prior to the Spikes incident.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j301/slmdls1/sports%20randoms/ealey20shove.jpg

[Jim]

So Hen, can you elaborate a bit on that police blotter?

[HellYeahHokie]

Anyone care to guess why this might be? Why would he publicly defend an opposing rival player that apparently was "gouging his eyes?"

Because he doesn't want to be suspended when he gets caught doing it?

[Blue Hen]

I'd like to know the average IQ of the starting players in the UF-UGA fb games these days.

I wish Tebow was playing for Bobby Johnson at Vanderbilt if he had to be an SEC player.

[ZOOMBAG]

That guy should have been suspended for a year for that completely out-of-line chocking incident.

Oregon didn't hesitate to suspend one of their star players for the season for throwing a punch against a player that was almost certainly provoking him.

Yes, I think the standard is certainly a season long suspension for that type of transgression.

[Blue Hen]

The last arrests I remember resulted from Gator players charging stuff on a dead woman's credit card. She was killed in some accident. There are assorted DUIs, gun violations, beating up girlfriends etc. Just do a search for 'criminal activity of Florida football players' or something like that, but 24 is the number I've seen multiple times and that was through July....so there are likely more. Dumb people have a higher propensity of doing dumb things and UF loves to suit up dumb guys.

[NCT]

I'm sure Tebow doesn't care whether he's in my good graces or not. For what it's worth, I think he shouldn't have commented about the Spikes incident at all.

I'm very skeptical of any public figure (including my own team's coach) who wears his faith on his sleeve. Tebow's on-field, self-congratulatory showboating is distasteful enough, but he's a competitor, and I've cut him some slack for it. To make excuses for this Spikes thing (as many, many have and continue to do) is too much for me.

[NCT]

All bad. All worthy of punishment. Not a single one of those things justify any of the others. You should stop pretending they did.

[GatorGrad]

The last arrests I remember resulted from Gator players charging stuff on a dead woman's credit card. She was killed in some accident. There are assorted DUIs, gun violations, beating up girlfriends etc. Just do a search for 'criminal activity of Florida football players' or something like that, but 24 is the number I've seen multiple times and that was through July....so there are likely more. Dumb people have a higher propensity of doing dumb things and UF loves to suit up dumb guys.

It was one player (not "players") using the credit card of Joe Haden's girlfriend who was killed in a car accident. It was Jamar Hornsby, a four or five star safety recruit, who was immediately dismissed by Meyer from the team. As for the arrests, most of them occurred with Ron Zook recruits. This is the first year where all players on the team were recruited by Urban Meyer.

[Blue Hen]

The Georgia RB himself (Ealey) says that he didn't think Spikes should have been suspended at all:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4619952

Anyone care to guess why this might be? Why would he publicly defend an opposing rival player that apparently was "gouging his eyes?"

.... because the 'Combined' IQs of Spikes and Ealey = about 130 ?

[Blue Hen]

Ok, thanks

[GatorGrad]

To make excuses for this Spikes thing (as many, many have and continue to do) is too much for me.

You are obviously entitled to your own opinion, but after reading the context of the question and Tebow's response, I didn't read it as him making an "excuse" for the Spikes deal. Rather just pointing out that there were some dirty plays on both sides in a tough and emotional game. Apparently he got poked in the eye as well at some point and was on the sidelines squinting and squirting some saline in it. The hit on him by Nick Williams not getting addressed by anyone probably didn't sit too well with him either.

All bad. All worthy of punishment. Not a single one of those things justify any of the others. You should stop pretending they did.

I agree...all bad and worthy of punishment. And they don't justify any of the others. I am not pretending that they did. I just don't think it's fair for some on here to spew all of this venom towards Spikes for his mistake but ignore Nick's hit for example. I am sure you will disagree, but I see that cheap shot as being just as bad if not worse given Tebow's concussion history, yet he seemingly is getting a free pass. That is all.

[GatorGrad]

.... because the 'Combined' IQs of Spikes and Ealey = about 130 ?

Ha....maybe. Or maybe it has something to do with these quotes...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4619952

"That really didn't matter to me," Ealey said of the suspension. "That's their decision. He shouldn't, I think, get suspended at all. We were just out there playing football."

Ealey said he had his eyes closed when Spikes stuck his hand in his helmet and he wasn't hurt.

"He really didn't gouge my eyes," Ealey said. "He really didn't get a chance to get close to my eyes."

The freshman said he believes similar incidents happen all the time.

"I'm pretty sure it goes on back and forth," he said. "We probably do it and other teams do too. It's all football. We're just out there trying to have fun."

"It was just a lot of emotion in the game," he said. "We were out there fighting. It was a big rivalry game. Everybody was just out there talking trash back and forth. ... We were just out there playing football and having fun."

[NCT]

I'm sure my opinion is swayed somewhat by having read a lot of comments from Florida fans along these lines:


Antiquated ideas like "class," "standards" and even "sportsmanship" are nothing more than tools—words with no real meaning that are used as weapons when someone doesn’t like what someone else is doing.

Winning matters. It’s the only objective measure of success.


I know better than to judge everyone by the comments of some, but this kind of thing has been frequent enough the last few days to color my general opinions. As far as I'm concerned, UF should put the above quote on a plaque right next to the Promise, because that's the kind of image that enough Gators are promoting to make it a characterizing feature of the program, the efforts of others like you notwithstanding.

I'm not particularly outraged by what the Spikes video shows. I was a little shocked, sure, but I've seen worse. It's been the response to it (by Tebow, Meyer, the SEC, and Florida fans) that has freaked me out more than a little.

As for Ealey's comments? I think there's probably a reason that 20 year olds don't have the final say in what's acceptable behavior.

[HellYeahHokie]

Here's a link to refresh your memory...if Reynolds should have been kicked off the team, these guys should have been castrated and locked up for life...

I totally agree. It was shameful. The result of those incidents was VT implementing a disciplinary plan for athletes that didn't exist before. Since that time, and in particular over the last 5 years, there have been very few incidents with VT players. But I make no excuses for Beamer's failure to discipline players sufficiently.

[Blue Hen]

I sure feel much like NCT does about the Gator Nation's unfortunate focus on 'winning at all costs'. Therefore, GG, I encourage you to 'jump ship' and support CF programs that do value sportsmanship, academic integrity , and overall class. You are a very astute poster and bright and moral guy, in my view. You'd make a good service academy fan or Stanford fan ....or if you still wanted to connect with the SEC, a Vanderbilt fan. :-)

[Doc]

I totally agree. It was shameful. The result of those incidents was VT implementing a disciplinary plan for athletes that didn't exist before. Since that time, and in particular over the last 5 years, there have been very few incidents with VT players. But I make no excuses for Beamer's failure to discipline players sufficiently.

kids make stupid mistakes. Should one mistake label them a thug or lead to them being removed from the team? I don't know - I think it depends on the circumstance and how they respond to the discipline. I also think the circumstances should dictate the severity of the punishment. Maybe there should also be some NCAA guidelines to go by based on the situation. I think repeated transgression should lead to very harsh consequences including the possibility of being removed from the team. But physical or sexual abuse of a young woman should never be tolerated - I wouldn't have a player that has done something like that on my team. Abusing a woman is not a mistake - it is an indication of some true character flaws.

[GatorGrad]

NCT & Hen,

I'm sorry that you have come across other Florida fans like that. What message boards are you visiting? Where did that quote and others you are referring to come from, NCT? I've been to a lot of games, stadiums, etc and frequent a lot of message boards. I have learned that there are good and bad fans at all schools. I have also learned that with any given group of fans, the classless ones generally tend to be younger kids or goons that never actually attended the university. To them, rooting for the Gators, Buckeyes, Vols, or whoever is on par with a fan of say a professional sports team. The mob mentality comes out, and they do not feel the same connection to the school which would make you feel responsible for how the school is represented. Most fans who actually attended or graduated from a school feel a sense of responsibility to represent their school properly.

I love the University of Florida. I grew up a Gator fan, but I never felt a true connection until I actually went to school there. I got my diploma there. I met my wife there. I met most of my life long friends there. When I see a Gator "fan" at a game acting like a jerk, I do my best to intervene. I've seen some disgusting displays from fans of other schools as well. Both in person and in message board posts. I've learned to ignore the nonsense and understand that each school has these types. I also think message boards can bring out the worst in these types as you can pretty much say anything you want to anyone, hiding behind a keyboard and computer screen. People will say the darndest things when they know they are on an anonymous computer. Things you would never soberly say in person.

Just my two cents. I am curious to know what board you are visiting with nonsense like that being posted, NCT. Is it CBS? Rivals? Please do not stereotype fans from those boards if so. For what it's worth, I am a member of a paid "insider" Gator board. The fans tend to be college educated, classy, somewhat objective, etc. I don't think I've read anything like what you posted above and if someone did, they would get called out. Everyone there thinks that what Spikes did was embarrassing and is taking away from what was a huge win for our team in our quest to repeat as SEC Champions.

Finally, I guess I'm still not sure what freaked you out in regards to what Tebow, Meyer, or the SEC said. Meyer talked to the SEC and apparently the conference rule for throwing a punch is a 1/2 game suspension which is why Spikes was suspended for a 1/2 game. They put this incident into the same category. Do I think it should have been a full game? Sure. Looking back, that probably would have appeased the masses a bit more. This 1/2 game deal is a bit silly IMO. But whether or not Spikes plays or doesn't play 30 minutes just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's not like he wasn't suspended at all. He was suspended, has apologized, and Ealey himself has apparently forgiven him...so it would seem as if it would be OK to move on. As for Tebow, I encourage you to read the full transcript or watch the video of the interview to get the context of the quote I think you are referring too.

[Blue Hen]

Nice post GG. You're a Gator fan to be admired..

but honest question - Are you concerned that UF is becoming, or has already become, the 80s Miami or the 90s FSU of today's CF climate, regarding academic, cerebral, and character standards ?

Those standards (plus great coaching, of course) certainly led to CF glory for those programs.

[HellYeahHokie]

but honest question - Are you concerned that UF is becoming, or has already become, the 80s Miami or the 90s FSU of today's CF climate, regarding academic, cerebral, and character standards ?.

I think he's answered this question upside down and backwards.

[HellYeahHokie]

kids make stupid mistakes. Should one mistake label them a thug or lead to them being removed from the team? I don't know - I think it depends on the circumstance and how they respond to the discipline. I also think the circumstances should dictate the severity of the punishment. Maybe there should also be some NCAA guidelines to go by based on the situation. I think repeated transgression should lead to very harsh consequences including the possibility of being removed from the team. But physical or sexual abuse of a young woman should never be tolerated - I wouldn't have a player that has done something like that on my team. Abusing a woman is not a mistake - it is an indication of some true character flaws.

I agree, but I also think blatantly trying to choke a player is not a mistake, but an indication of a true character flaw. I think a sucker punch is an indication of a true character flaw. Trying to poke someone's eye out isn't a mistake either.

Punishments should fit the transgression. Some transgressions like rape should result in permanent dismissal from the University. Sucker punching someone, like the kid from Oregon should result in a severe punishment, but not dismissal from team. Trying to poke someone's eyes out should result in something more severe than sitting out 2 quarters against a team that Florida should beat by 4 touchdowns. Sitting out 2 quarters of a game is the type of punishment that should be given to a player who skips class.

It's all about sending a message to the team about what will be tolerated and what won't. Yes, kids make mistakes. And kids who make those mistakes need to understand that mistakes hurt the team and there will be repercussions The message Meyer's sent was that trying to poke someone's eye out isn't that big a deal and will be tolerated with little more than a slap on the wrist.

[GatorGrad]

Nice post GG. You're a Gator fan to be admired..

but honest question - Are you concerned that UF is becoming, or has already become, the 80s Miami or the 90s FSU of today's CF climate, regarding academic, cerebral, and character standards ?

Those standards (plus great coaching, of course) certainly led to CF glory for those programs.

No, not yet Hen and here is why. First, I don't think that Urban Meyer will let it happen. I actually think he's done a great job running the program and "controlling the beast." He has shown the ability to recruit top-notch athletes while having them improve their GPA's, give back more to the community, graduate more frequently, etc. He has won at the highest level without losing control. During the Zook years, not only did we not win as much, but the kids were completely out of control. It was a circus. They did not respect the Head Coach. It was an insane asylum. Many quit the team since they did not "buy in" to Meyer's approach. It took a while to weed out the players that didn't want to work hard and represent our program to the best of their abilities.

Now, does this mean that I think we have a bunch of choir boys on the team who will never make mistakes? Of course not. We certainly have our share of on or off the field incidents that I am not proud of. However, I do not think that they are significantly higher than at other places like FSU, Tennessee, USC, etc. I just think that our slip-ups are more magnified and blown out of proportion due to our recent success. Nobody seemed to care about any of this same nonsense back when we were going 8-5 under Ron Zook. The media seems to ignore bad calls that go against us and things like the Nick Williams cheap shot on Tebow. Why do you think that is? Let's be honest - most non Gator fans are sick of Florida. They are sick of Tim Tebow mania. The team has won 2 of the last 3 SEC & BCS Titles and currently is unbeaten and ranked #1 with the nation's longest winning streak. Add to that the recent back to back basketball titles, and I sense that there is a lot of jealousy out there among our rivals and casual college sports fans. I hear it on the radio, read it on message boards, and see it at games with the way fans act. When your team is on top, everyone is looking for an excuse or reason to tear you down. It is human nature. That has been very evident this year with our team. The media, fans, etc jump on every possible negative story that they can and blow it completely out of proportion.

First, Meyer was ripped for defending himself from Lane Kiffin's nonsense. Then he was ripped for allowing Tebow to play sick and blamed for having him in the game in the 3rd Quarter against Kentucky when he got his concussion. Then he was ripped for allowing Tebow to play two weeks later at LSU, even though an army of professional doctors had cleared him. Meyer was a "heartless win at all costs bastard who does not care at all about the health and well being of his players." Then there was the Arkansas and Miss State games where a few calls went our way (nevermind the calls that did not go our way or the other bad calls throughout the country.) As Stewart Mandel pointed out in a recent mailbag article, the bad calls were no different than what we see on a week to week basis in sports. They are just magnified by fans who deep down inside are upset because the calls hurt their hope of seeing Florida go down. Now we have this Spikes deal, an unfortunate incident no doubt. He has apologized, been suspended, and Ealey has forgiven him and said that no contact was made with his eyes. I am sorry, but this has been blown way out of proportion by some. I can't help but think that if the roles were reversed and that Spikes was on a 4-4 Georgia team that this would have just not been that big of a deal to this many people.

In summary, I think that winning causes teams to be under more of a microscope. If a team "wins too much," then fans and media have to find other ways and reasons to put them down. The media coverage of Tebow's concussion, the bad referee calls, and the Spikes incident, etc. Those all receive 10% the coverage by media or fans if we are say Texas Tech this year. But because we are perceived to be on top right now, people want to create drama and get shots in whenever they can. Whether it's the Yankees in the late 90's, Bobby Bowden in the 90's, Bill Belichek this decade with the Patriots, etc. Everyone hated Spurrier in the 90's when he was dominating the SEC. He was an arrogant SOB, ran up the score, etc. Now that he's at South Carolina and not winning anything, nobody seems to care all that much about him. It is human nature to try extra hard to find fault with successful people in life. It comes with the territory.

[NCT]

The quoted Gator comment was from www.dawgsports.com. I've seen similar and worse on YouTube, various sbnation sites, the ajc, etc. I know not to judge all fans by comments like that, or I'd hate my own team.

Here's the thing. My "formative years" as a Georgia fan were the '70s and '80s: the years of my childhood and enrollment at the University. I never gave much thought to Florida at all for any reason except that the Gators were our partner in the cool, neutral-site tradition. Even after Spurrier came along and changed the tone of the rivalry, I still wasn't bothered by Florida. I didn't know any Florida fans. My worst game-day experiences have come at Tech, by far, and I've gotten some pretty bad impressions of Auburn fans. I will say that my experiences in Jacksonville (both when Georgia was still dominating and since) exposed me to some of the trashiest people I've ever encountered among any SEC fan base. There are things about the experiences and people in Tuscaloosa and Oxford and Nashville and Auburn and even Baton Rouge that were familiar but that were not present in Florida. But it's a different world down there, I've assumed, trying not to judge. And yes, I understand that whom one encounters at a football game is luck of the draw, and sometimes it's bad luck. I know there are people who have had terrible times in Athens, and that bothers me deeply. And maybe Florida fans are different in Gainesville, but from what I've seen in Jacksonville, I'd just as soon never find out.

Maybe partly due to things being more emphasized due to the Gators' recent success, but there's a "totality of circumstances" thing going on that colors my general opinion. For one thing, I've watched maybe only 6-8 Florida games in the last couple of years. Without fail, there will be a mention or discussion about how a Florida corner pulled or pushed on an opponent's receiver to throw him off balance or even knock him down -- to the point that it's obvious it's being coached (or vice versa - a Florida receiver "over-engaging" an opponent's defender). Nobody else gets described that way with that kind of consistency. No one. It happens in every Florida game I've watched. And Uncle Gary usually laughs it off with a "hey, if you can get away with it ..." Florida gets more "hey, if you can get away with it" comments than any other team I've seen. If I had the technical savvy, I'd put together a montage. I think it'd be funny.

Then there's the curious frequency with which Florida players have been charged with and/or convicted of some pretty serious crimes. There's the nearly unanimous response from Florida fans to this Spikes thing of "b-b-but look at what the other guys did!" You know who else agrees with that response? No one.

It's an accumulation of impressions, really, and not just one thing. But as an accumulation, the impressions get very, very strong. I've always "hated" Tech and Auburn much worse than Florida, and to be honest, I've paid a lot more attention to them over the course of my life than I have to Florida. But Florida has slowly but surely established itself very negatively in my mind.

Might my opinion be colored by sour grapes due to the recent series record? Maybe. But if I didn't have this impression in 2003 when the record was 1-13 over the previous 14 years (and I didn't), then I think it's probably not that much of a factor.

I've never complained about this stuff out loud, by the way. Well, except for some unpleasant encounters in Jacksonville, and then not very seriously. I haven't been harboring some seething hatred or resentment of all things Gator at all. I guess this Spikes thing was a kind of tipping point where it's become impossible to dismiss each bad impression individually, as I typically do and have.

[NCT]

Also, check out this late cheap shot hit on Tebow well after a hand-off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDvFbD7wIAg



Well after a handoff sure, but not a late hit, as it turns out, because Demps wasn't down yet, and the play was ongoing.

[GatorGrad]

Well after a handoff sure, but not a late hit, as it turns out, because Demps wasn't down yet, and the play was ongoing.

Ha...you're a good lawyer!

[GatorGrad]

I'm sorry you feel that way about Florida, NCT. I really am. I encourage you to not take seriously what any visiting fans on dawgsports.com have to say. Think about it...what kind of fans go on rival message boards? The kind of "fans" that are looking for an internet fight. Why else would a Gator go to a Bulldog board? 90% of the time, they are looking for trouble. Rarely do those encounters lead to any conversation that is worthwhile. They tend to be younger immature "fans" with nothing better to do. We get rival FSU, Georgia, Tennessee, etc fans on the non-paid part of GatorCountry.com as well. If I assumed that all fans from these schools represented the fan base as a whole, I wouldn't think much of them either. Same goes for comments on YouTube, Rivals.com, CBS, etc. Have you read the comments from some UGA fans after some of Tony Barnhart's blog entries? There is so much garbage out there, you really have to weed through it to find intelligent discussion.

You also have to be careful not to judge a fan base based on a few encounters with fans. It truly is "luck of the draw." If I judged the entire Ohio State fan base on my trip to Arizona for the 2006 BCS Championship Game, particularly based on the fans at the particular hotel that I was staying at and were tailgating next to, I would think that they were the scum of the earth. But I know that is not the case. On this very board we have several classy Buckeye fans that represent their team well. Same deal for some LSU encounters I have had, Tennessee, Auburn, etc. There are good and bad fans in every fan base. Of course having a large university means more fans and usually more idiots overall. Having a winning team certainly helps make the obnoxious fans even more obnoxious as well (they tend to hide when their team is down...see Miami "fans.")

As for the WR tugging at a jersey, are you talking about Riley Cooper at LSU this year? That's the only time that comes to mind and I watch every single game. He definitely got away with that one there. But we've been screwed by bad calls before as well - who hasn't? I'll never forget FSU '03, Tennessee '04, or Auburn '06. There have been others, but those are three recent games where I felt like a poor referee call cost us the game. It happens. Surely your Bulldogs have gotten a call or two before?

As for the trash you've witnessed at the WLOCP, it definitely is hit or miss. What I have seen is that since the game is here in Florida, you do get some of the redneck trash disguised as "Gator Fans" showing up just to be part of the party. The game is close by, and they will come with or without tickets. Something that they could not do if the game were in Atlanta for example. My guess is that I would encounter a larger % of "trashy UGA fans" if the game were up there as well whereas almost 100% of the traveling Gator fans would be the "good kind." That's my take anyways and what I've seen having been to the game in 8 of the last 11 years. I think you mentioned that your last game here was in 1990 or 1991...is that correct? If so that's too long ago to make a judgment about what goes on here today...20 years!

As I said before, come on down sometime. I might even be able to get you a ticket to the game...if you don't mind sitting on the orange and blue side of the stadium. :)

[NCT]

I'm sorry you feel that way about Florida, NCT. I really am. I encourage you to not take seriously what any visiting fans on dawgsports.com have to say. Think about it...what kind of fans go on rival message boards? The kind of "fans" that are looking for an internet fight. Why else would a Gator go to a Bulldog board? 90% of the time, they are looking for trouble. Rarely do those encounters lead to any conversation that is worthwhile. They tend to be younger immature "fans" with nothing better to do. We get rival FSU, Georgia, Tennessee, etc fans on the non-paid part of GatorCountry.com as well. If I assumed that all fans from these schools represented the fan base as a whole, I wouldn't think much of them either. Same goes for comments on YouTube, Rivals.com, CBS, etc. Have you read the comments from some UGA fans after some of Tony Barnhart's blog entries? There is so much garbage out there, you really have to weed through it to find intelligent discussion.

Take a look at dawgsports.com sometime. You'd be surprised how many thoughtful, non-provocative posts there are from Georgia's rivals. It's not the kind of site that invites or welcomes trash talk. There's a decent post from a Florida fan about the Spikes thing, as a matter of fact. It's not like the rivals or scout sites, which I avoid, both for the homer and rival trash-talking.

You also have to be careful not to judge a fan base based on a few encounters with fans.

I don't.

As for the WR tugging at a jersey, are you talking about Riley Cooper at LSU this year?

As I think I wrote, I'm talking about every one of about 6-8 Florida games I've watched in the past couple of years, including but not limited to UF-LSU 2009. Maybe there were one or two where it didn't happen, but I don't think so. And in any event, nobody else does that kind of thing with such regularity. It's quite obviously part of the UF game plan. But hey, as long as they can get away with it ...

As for the trash you've witnessed at the WLOCP, it definitely is hit or miss. What I have seen is that since the game is here in Florida, you do get some of the redneck trash disguised as "Gator Fans" showing up just to be part of the party. The game is close by, and they will come with or without tickets. Something that they could not do if the game were in Atlanta for example. My guess is that I would encounter a larger % of "trashy UGA fans" if the game were up there as well whereas almost 100% of the traveling Gator fans would be the "good kind." That's my take anyways and what I've seen having been to the game in 8 of the last 11 years. I think you mentioned that your last game here was in 1990 or 1991...is that correct? If so that's too long ago to make a judgment about what goes on here today...20 years!

As I said before, come on down sometime. I might even be able to get you a ticket to the game...if you don't mind sitting on the orange and blue side of the stadium. :)

My use of the term "trash" was inflammatory and unfair. We've all got our share. And I think you're absolutely right that travelling fans are much more likely to have a lower proportion of unpleasant types. I can say this without hesitation, though: based on my experience with the travelling Gator fans who came to Athens in 1995, I hope the next day we host UF in the Classic City is a day when you can ice skate on the Everglades. Or the Okefenokee. Take your pick. Or on a day when you can hand-pick the fans that come. Maybe UF has become more like the rest of the conference since I was last in Jax for the Cocktail Party, but over a period of 15 years, it was truly like being with people from a different planet as compared to trips anywhere else in the SEC.

I realize it's hard not to take expressions of negative impressions personally. It really bothers me when I hear reports of a bad experience in Athens by a visiting fan. And maybe if I actually knew more Florida fans or alumni, the "totality of circumstances" might lead to different conclusions. But as it is, based on experience and observation (fans, players, coaches, etc.), you and Don are exceptions, not the other way around.

[GatorGrad]

Didn't realize that dawgsports was not affiliated with Scout or Rivals...those are the worst. Is it independent like GatorCountry?

I really want to know what games you are referring to with those 6-8 games where it happened in every game. I've watched them all and I just find that hard to believe. The event you described definitely happened in the LSU game this year, even the quote from Verne that you brought up. It was on Riley Cooper's TD. We definitely got away with one there.

Anyways, I'm sorry you have such a sour taste in your mouth about Florida. I really didn't know that. The only time I really got upset at UGA for anything was when the team stormed the field two years ago to celebrate the first touchdown. I thought that was pretty bush league, and was shocked that Mark Richt would allow it. I think a lot of Mark Richt as a person. I was also shocked that so many UGA fans thought that it was so fantastic. But I got over it after last year's win. I've also encountered some UGA fans that you would probably be less than proud of. Same for LSU, Tennessee, etc. But overall, my experience with UGA fans has been fine. We sat in the UGA section Saturday and chatted all game with a Bulldog grad student. His father played for UGA in the 60's or 70's and he was a great guy. Talked about Richt, the black helmets, Willie Martinez, etc.

It sounds as if most of your bad experiences with Florida fans occurred 20+ years ago. Maybe it was a case of us finally being good and competing for SEC Titles for the first time after 80 years of frustration? Perhaps we didn't know how to be good winners? Or having an arrogant coach like Steve Spurrier? I'm not sure, but I think Florida fans have come a long way since then. Maybe they've "learned how to fit in" in the SEC. It doesn't surprise me that you think that people seem different down here. Florida may be in the south, but it is not really "southern." We have so many transplants from the north...people who move down from Chicago, New York, Boston, etc to retire and then their kids end up going to school at UF. The joke here is that the farther south you go in Florida, the farther north you actually get. In other words, Jacksonville is more "southern" whereas Tampa and Orlando have more northern transplants. Then places like Sarasota, Naples, Boca, Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, etc have even more.

[GatorGrad]

By the way, is this the post by the Florida fan on dawgsports.com that you were referring to?

http://www.dawgsports.com/2009/11/2/1111766/a-florida-fan-who-takes-what

[Blue Hen]

Ok GG, I hope you're right.

I'm not sure about blaming Ron Zook for everything, However. There's got to be some institional responsibility too. I don't think Zook ran the UF admissions office, for example.

[NCT]

I didn't mean to get into all of this. The fan experience from 20 years ago was not conclusive as to anything. In fact, no single thing has been conclusive. It's just, as I said, an accumulation.

No worries. Considering that my worst game day experiences with fans, by far, have been at Tech, which has left a very strong negative impression of them, but half my family went to Tech, I well understand that the conduct of a few (or even lots) cannot be applied to all. I know there are Florida fans out there with whom I'd get along (you know I've met at least one!).

[NCT]

Didn't realize that dawgsports was not affiliated with Scout or Rivals...those are the worst. Is it independent like GatorCountry?

www.dawgsports.com (http://www.dawgsports.com) was an independent blog run by a couple of lawyers who went to UGA. It's been affiliated with sbnation.com for a few years now. Almost every team in the SEC has a blog on sbnation, and there's one for the SEC called (tongue-in-cheek) www.teamspeedkills.com (http://www.teamspeedkills.com).

These are blogs with lots of member participation in comments. It's one of my frequent stops. Like Florida does, I'm sure, Georgia fans have tons of blogs run by fans, some better than others, of course. I visit several on a regular basis through my Google newsfeed reader (through which I also collect Georgia-related stories from selected newspapers). If you don't use such a reader, I highly recommend it. It saves lots of time poking around the Internet and brings subscribed content all to one place for you.

[NCT]

By the way, is this the post by the Florida fan on dawgsports.com that you were referring to?

http://www.dawgsports.com/2009/11/2/1111766/a-florida-fan-who-takes-what

I referred to that post, and the bit I quoted was a comment to that post.

[GatorGrad]

That teamspeedskills blog is cool. I am adding it to my favorite places. And yes, that was a very good post by the Gator fan on that Dawg website. I agree with most of what he wrote. I also saw the comment underneath by the idiot. I've learned to block out posts/responses to blogs and message boards like that. I can usually tell within one sentence or two whether a post is worth reading and if I can tell it's going to be nonsense, I skip on to the next one.

[MasterBevo]

[QUOTE=NCT;40873] But Florida has slowly but surely established itself very negatively in my mind.

[\QUOTE]


I think it's all that arm-flapping and yelling "Gator Bait".... :p

I mean, really... wanting someone to be "gator bait"....?? Isn't that a threat? Can we charge them with something?

Several of the UF fans that came to Lexington two years ago were very obnoxious... I guess, that just comes with winning. But, I'll tell you this.... had they acted in Baton Rouge the way they did in Lexington, they would've gotten their butts kicked.

at Kentucky, we're just... nice. :)

[Blue Hen]

Is there a teamdumbthkills blog out there anywhere ?

[tigerntampa]

Of the 21 (give or take) UF players arrested during Meyer's tenure, 15 were Meyer recruits, not Zook's.

http://www.gatorsports.com/article/20090614/ARTICLES/906141012?Title=Are-the-Gators-getting-a-bad-rap-on-crime-

[Blue Hen]

Oh Oh....GatorGrad might not be too thrilled to learn this. Thanks for sharing

[GatorGrad]

Actually, I like this data even more. Although I was off by including the crucial 2005 recruiting class which contained 9 of the 21 arrests (had originally counted it towards Zook although it actually was Meyer's first season) here is what I see:

2005 - 9 arrests...Meyer's first recruiting class. He was hired in December and had less than two months to put this together. Many kids were already recruited by the prior coaching staff and the rest it was just about taking what we could get. No time to develop relationships with kids, get to know their character, etc. Only a few of these kids remain on the current team as redshirt seniors such as WR David Nelson and LB Ryan Stamper. This class was a failure overall, on and off the field, and I think it is reasonable to give Meyer a pass given the time he had to actually put it together.

2006 - 4 arrests...much better than 2005 as Meyer had a full year to recruit these kids. Still not perfect however.

2007, 2008, 2009 classes - 2 arrests combined.

I see a very good trend.

Other quotes of note from the article:

The arrest rate for Florida players is comparable to the rate for the entire student body.

The Sun's survey also revealed UF's arrests are in line with those of its traditional rivals. Georgia football players have accumulated 30 arrests during the same four-year period. Tennessee has tallied 21 arrests.

Kameg estimated that Gainesville police arrest 25 to 30 students each weekend. Based on the GPD sample, between 3.7 percent and 4.4 percent of Florida undergraduate students are arrested each year. Given a Florida roster that with walk-ons can range from 100 to 120 players per season, the average number of UF football players arrested per year is 4.2 percent.

Kameg said the majority of arrests are alcohol-related. Given the mix of alcohol and testosterone, Kameg said fights often occur at clubs and bars.

Florida athletic director Jeremy Foley said he has supported and will continue to support Meyer's off-the-field approach to discipline and mentoring.

"No one works harder in this area than Urban," Foley said in a statement. "I see it every day. Anyone who can't see his desire to influence young men positively and make them better citizens has no idea who he is as a coach and a human being.

"It is really easy to focus on negative issues and negative press. This is part of the world we live in and we understand this. No one here condones our players stepping out of line and everyone here wants to get better. However, Urban Meyer and his staff are the best that I've seen in modifying behavior, and at the end of the day, the majority of the players who come through this program will make us all proud and not just because they are good football players."

[tigerntampa]

The arrest rate for Florida players is comparable to the rate for the entire student body.

Is that necessarily a good thing? :p

[Blue Hen]

Glad that Zook is off the Hook...heheee

GG, It's not a coach , it's institutional ideology. It's Foley as much as any coach. I find his comment about 'modifying player behavior' comical and a little disgusting.. Why can't Florida ( and other such factories) suit up quality kids that don't require behavior modification ?

I think ( strictly my personal perception ) that URBAN's plan is :

"I want to build the fastest team in CF ( repeats this often). I plan on recruiting the fastest, most athletic guys I can find. If they can't count to 10 or have character flaws...well, that's OK, because when they get here I will lecture them about going to class, and not doing dumb stuff'.

Point of admissions standards (academic-cerebral-character) is what separates class from no class in my opinion. That's why UM did not accept his 'dream' coaching job. Class was an obstacle to winning.

[tigerntampa]

Agreed Hen. This myth that Urban Meyer is some sort of "super disciplinarian" is just that, a myth. He is just like every other coach at a major football factory. Just own up to it.

[GatorGrad]

The arrest rate for Florida players is comparable to the rate for the entire student body.

Is that necessarily a good thing? :p

Well we would have to see how that compares to other schools, but considering the decent reputation we have academically for "normal students," I would tend to think that it is not a bad thing.

[GatorGrad]

He is just like every other coach at a major football factory. Just own up to it.

I have owned up to it. I agree! "He is just like every other coach at a major football factory." That's really been my point in defending him whenever someone like Hen takes jabs at my school while ignoring the others. Most of the football factories are in the same boat.

[GatorGrad]

Point of admissions standards (academic-cerebral-character) is what separates class from no class in my opinion. That's why UM did not accept his 'dream' coaching job. Class was an obstacle to winning.

Well I disagree that admission standards separate class from no class. Is that really how you define class? Is it not possible for "dumb kids" to be classy kids? Is Tebow a classy kid? If so, you would be surprised to know his SAT score. At any rate, once again...

2005 - 9 arrests...Meyer's first recruiting class with less than two months to put it together, many of which were initially recruited under Zook. Only four kids remain from this class on the current team anyways. Nelson, Stamper, Munroe, and Phillips. Two starters, a backup safety, and the backup kicker. All good kids. The rest are gone.

2006 - 4 arrests including Rickerson and Hornsby who were kicked off the team.

2007, 2008, 2009 classes - 2 arrests combined.

Do you disagree that this is a good trend in the right direction? Two arrests in the last three recruiting classes. Things have improved.

[Blue Hen]

Yeah, I'd agree that admissions standards isn't the only component of 'class.'

I've said it before and , again with all sincerity GG, I hope you're dead right about the direction that UF football is going and I'm dead wrong.

I'm worried, however. I followed FSU closely when I first got interested in the dumbth factor and winning and similar patterns are developing......great, great coaching...dumb speedy, athletic kids...definitely the winning formula but....... we'll see, I guess. I remember when the Gator nation looked down at FSU as academically fraudulent when the Noles were #1 in the Sunshine State and Miami as an embarrassing thug program when the Canes were #1 down there. Do you see things changing regarding the relationship between these 3 big CF factories ?

[GatorGrad]

Yeah, I'd agree that admissions standards isn't the only component of 'class.'

Good...because that is not what you implied in your prior post.


I've said it before and , again with all sincerity GG, I hope you're dead right about the direction that UF football is going and I'm dead wrong.

I just showed you the pattern of arrests. A good pattern going in the right direction, no?

I'm worried, however.

Why are you worried? Why do you care so much about UF? It seems as if you are obsessed with UF and like half of your posts are about UF.


Do you see things changing regarding the relationship between these 3 big CF factories ?

Miami has done a good job cleaning up their off the field image thanks to Randy Shannon. FSU is the same as always, just not as good on the field due to a lame duck "Head Coach" who is way past his prime.

[Blue Hen]

GG,

I don't really 'buy' your suggested 'trend' of good Gator FB behavior.
The 2005 kids have just had more time to screw up...so they have the higher crime rate. Wait until the 2006 -09 kids haver had 4-5 years in the program...more time to do dumb things. Take a crime count then. Tenure might be more of a factor than improved team intelligence.

Why do I pick on the Gators ? I've answered that numerous times. The program is the epitome of 'dumbth factor' success...the most visible example
right now. What CF win-at-all-cost factory program is more hyped than UF's right now ? I'll be moving on to other such operations as they 'dumbth' their way to the top...you can count on that. I jumped all over 90s FSU ....much worse than I do the Gators, when I discovered how and why the Noles were dominating the ACC. I'm an equal opportunity critic.