Curious about opinions

[kocurt]

Hey fellas,

I was curious to get everyones reaction to the NCAA sanctions against OU. What I mean is do you think the punishment fits the crime and ,more importantly, does it send the right message to other schools?
Being an OU alum I tend to have a strong opinion, but I am curious about what others think. If there is anyone who has been living under a rock out there here is the situation in a nutshell.
Three football players conspired with a booster to intentionally decieve the compliance department and recieve money for work they never performed. The violation was discovered by the OU compliance staff which promptly investigated ALL players working at the dealership and determined that only three were involved. They then turned thier findings over to Castiglione and Stoops. Stoops instantly booted all three players from the team (a national championship calibre team at that), barred all players from working at the dealership, imposed recruiting limits on himself and the program, gave up scholarships voluntarily, and then informed the NCAA of what had been found and what had been done and turned over all the investigation files from the compliance staff. The NCAA investigative committe and president commended Stoops and OU for thier actions and prompt response. Now, months later, the punitive arm of the NCAA levied even heavier sanctions on OU stripping them of thier wins for 2005, the Holiday Bowl championship, and placing them on probation until 2010.

So what do you think?

Me feelings are that there HAD to be some form of punishment for what happened. I think the fact that Stoops punished himself and the program voluntarily and cooperated with the NCAA to the fullest should have been enough. Frankly, the violations may never have come to light had Stoops not cooperated and reported them. Further, I believe by punishing OU so severly when they DISCOVERED the violations on thier own and then REPORTED them, the NCAA is encouraging other programs to cover up and hide violations instead of taking action and doing the right thing. Lots of people are focused on the wrong-doings of USC and how they are skating without penalty and lose sight of the real issue. USC and other programs have had similar violations and are experiencing them right NOW, but instead of doing the right thing and taking action, they are now going to be given terrific incentive to "cover up" , deny, and refuse to cooperate with teh NCAA. Frankly, if I had a choice, I would NOT put any trust in the fair or intelligent action of the NCAA as an athletic director.

[String911]

I guess I'm fine with the 4 lost scholarships (2 and 2). I wish they didn't have to vacate the wins. That just seems wrong. I'd have tacked on another year or two of probation, that way if OU slips up again, then you'd go ahead and hammer them. They'd have to watch their step. Vacating wins? Nah.

[GatorGrad]

Vacating wins is silly, makes no sense, and does nothing. Unless you are vacating a championship won, then what's the point? I mean does this mean that Nebraska really beat Oklahoma via forfeit in 2005 and thus at 5-3 won the Big 12 North and should have played Texas in the Big 12 Championship Game? Does Nebraska get to claim 2005 Big 12 North Champs? If Oklahoma has to forfeit these wins, then shouldn't the opponents claim the wins? Both teams can't lose the same game, can they? The NCAA can really be silly.

[FLORIDA HERD FAN]

The loss of scholarships is insufficient - 5 scholies for 5 years is a previous NCAA standard for a similar, but lesser offense. The probation should have been for for 5 years, but OU should not have to forfeit the wins. The booster should have been banned from any involvement with the school for 5 years.

[Blue Hen]

IMO, the rampant academic fraud at the win-at-all-costs CF factories is far more disgusting than phony jobs. The NCAA doesn't seem to care about academic integrity.

[kocurt]

The loss of scholarships is insufficient - 5 scholies for 5 years is a previous NCAA standard for a similar, but lesser offense. The probation should have been for for 5 years, but OU should not have to forfeit the wins. The booster should have been banned from any involvement with the school for 5 years.

The booster received a LIFELONG ban and recieved so many threats and was so severly harassed by fans that he has since moved from the state.

[H.I.]

You're right about that. The blackest mark in UGA's football history, the infamous Jan Kemp affair (squarely academic and none of those recruiting or inappropriate benefits violations), resulted in the resignation of the University's president and the vice-president for academic affairs and the loss of over $1 million dollars in a lawsuit, but led to zero NCAA sanctions. Oh, and Dooley kept his job. The president was replaced (after an interim) by the fellow who'd been executive vice president at Tulane when their basketball program was terminated. People were scared. Things got a lot tighter after that, although clearly the watch had become a little slack a few years ago in basketball. It was fun for a while there when some football recruits would go to Georgia Tech instead of Georgia, because they couldn't meet UGA's tougher academic standards for athletes, hitting the Jackets right where they like to brag.

they could also brag that they won a national championship more recently than the bulldogs (1990 vs. 1980). and possibly more overall national titles depending on what one consider legitimate "national titles". and the jacket also played in a conference championship game last year while uga sat at home the first weekend in december. granted, uga owns the overall head-to-head record, but you said it yourself, the dawgs cheated their way to a lot of those victories.

as for ou, what do you really expect? they're a rouge university that cheats in everything and has to fire racist coaches every now an a then. i mean how many other universities in america have had their starting quarterback handcuffed on the cover of sports illustrated? and it really comes a some shock that 20 years later they would have a kid qb busted for taking money without working? give me a break. to me that's progress for those bunch of land stealing hillbillies.

boz said he purchased a corvette during his ou days for a dollar, and i'd be willing to bet that some of these same people that had a hand in the bomar situation had a hand in boz getting a corvette for a buck. nothing has changed since then but and string of bad coaches before stoops dropped in their laps. give them hillbillies the death penalty like they did smu. this slap on the wrist stinks to high heaven. it reminds me of a quote tark the shark said years ago, and i'm paraphrasing here, "the ncaa is so mad at kentucky for cheating, they just gave cleveland state 3 more years of probation." keep looking, i'm sure you'll find a school like troy state that will have to suffer for ou being the same cheating bums they were 20 years ago. sicken.

[copycat]

It was fun for a while there when some football recruits would go to Georgia Tech instead of Georgia, because they couldn't meet UGA's tougher academic standards for athletes, hitting the Jackets right where they like to brag.

What?!? When/Who was this?

[Blue Hen]

Good mention of Jan Kemp...............very brave lady. The faculty members at Tennessee, Auburn , LSU and other places who reported academic fraud...kudos to them too. They experienced some community hatred and backlash but showed great fortitude and integrity.

[HellYeahHokie]

Speaking of academic fraud at UGa, who was it that exposed the basketball folly? Didn't that finally put Dooley to pasture, or did he somehow manage to escape that mess too?

VT had Dooley's brother Bill, whose academic fraud and mismanagement brought down our athletic department to rock-bottom. It's amazing how the Dooley's operated for so long. It not that lots of other Universities weren't also cheating, but the Dooleys seemed to be universally bad at it.

[EvilVodka]

Vacating wins is a joke, and actually punishes more players that had nothing to do with all of the car dealership stuff...its not fair to the whole team

[kocurt]

\

as for ou, what do you really expect? they're a rouge university that cheats in everything and has to fire racist coaches every now an a then. i mean how many other universities in america have had their starting quarterback handcuffed on the cover of sports illustrated? and it really comes a some shock that 20 years later they would have a kid qb busted for taking money without working? give me a break. to me that's progress for those bunch of land stealing hillbillies.

You sir, are a troll. Not a very good or particularly intelligent one either.
\

[H.I.]

\ You sir, are a troll. Not a very good or particularly intelligent one either.
\

so presenting facts is considered trolling? true or false: ex-sooner baseball coach larry cochell was forced to resign for uttering these words, "
“There are honkies and white people and there are n——— and black people. Dunigan is a good black kid ... There’s no n——- in him.” here's a link to refresh your memory. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2051357

or how about this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/CharlesThompsonSI-01.jpg

like i said, sooner football players getting paid for doing nothing is progress from y'alls prior history of cheating.

[kocurt]

so presenting facts is considered trolling?
like i said, sooner football players getting paid for doing nothing is progress from y'alls prior history of cheating.

No. Calling names and dragging up 20 year old history to justify current injustice is trolling. By your logic, SMU should not be playing football at all and the players they do have are driving cadillacs given to them by boosters and earning money to play there. It happened, so it must still be true? Right? Idiot/troll. Oklahoma football is one of the cleanest programs in the entire nation run by one of the most ethical, fair, and honest coaches to ever exist. You are still a troll. Again, not a very good one either. Keep trying.

[Blue Hen]

OU certainly has been a win-at-all-cost, CF program in recent decades but if you go way back to the Bud Wilkinson years (47-63) the Sooners were very well admired and respected...and dominated.

" The thing I'm proudest of is the type of boy represented at Oklahoma in football.....a boy of character, a boy who first must be a good enough student to do college work with undue difficulty, and be able to graduate "

- Bud Wilkinson

I love those old time values in college sports.

[H.I.]

No. Calling names and dragging up 20 year old history to justify current injustice is trolling. By your logic, SMU should not be playing football at all and the players they do have are driving cadillacs given to them by boosters and earning money to play there. It happened, so it must still be true? Right? Idiot/troll. Oklahoma football is one of the cleanest programs in the entire nation run by one of the most ethical, fair, and honest coaches to ever exist. You are still a troll. Again, not a very good one either. Keep trying.

20 years ago ain't that long ago, chief. i'm sure you like to brag about all of ou's national championships prior to 1987 or does the 2000 title count because the rest in "old" history? anyways, it is quite funny that you can say with a straight face that oklahoma football is one of cleanest program in the entire nation when they were just forced to vacant the 2005 season and give up scholarships the next couple of seasons. make sense to me for the governing body would subtract wins because they're the model of ethical, fair and honest standards.

[GopherGuy]

20 years ago ain't that long ago, chief. i'm sure you like to brag about all of ou's national championships prior to 1987 or does the 2000 title count because the rest in "old" history? anyways, it is quite funny that you can say with a straight face that oklahoma football is one of cleanest program in the entire nation when they were just forced to vacant the 2005 season and give up scholarships the next couple of seasons. make sense to me for the governing body would subtract wins because they're the model of ethical, fair and honest standards.

Hmmm... let's see. 20 years ago, the Cold War was going strong, the Berlin Wall was still up, we were friends with Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, only part of the Beatles catalog was available on compact disc, the world wide web hadn't been invented yet, very few people had ever even heard of the internet (although I'm sure Al Gore was aware of it) much less ever used it, MS-DOS was the dominant operating system on computers, Tiffany was touring malls all around the country, MTV actually showed music videos, Three Men and a Baby was the top grossing movie of the year, the average cost of a movie ticket was $3.91, the Twins won their first World Series and I had my first date. Yeah, it seems like just yesterday...

[H.I.]

Hmmm... let's see. 20 years ago, the Cold War was going strong, the Berlin Wall was still up, we were friends with Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, only part of the Beatles catalog was available on compact disc, the world wide web hadn't been invented yet, very few people had ever even heard of the internet (although I'm sure Al Gore was aware of it) much less ever used it, MS-DOS was the dominant operating system on computers, Tiffany was touring malls all around the country, MTV actually showed music videos, Three Men and a Baby was the top grossing movie of the year, the average cost of a movie ticket was $3.91, the Twins won their first World Series and I had my first date. Yeah, it seems like just yesterday...


valid points. but i fail to see what world politics, computing power and jack morris have to do with college football 20 years ago. it would be like saying historically that minnesota football sucks. that's just not the case, historically speaking. look at the national titles they collected since the beginning of college football to 1987. it sounds to me that you would like to vacant all football records because they didn't happen after the rise of mtv and the internet. if that's the case, minnesota football does suck. but most of us don't have ADD and believe the world started when we were born.

[GopherGuy]

valid points. but i fail to see what world politics, computing power and jack morris have to do with college football 20 years ago. it would be like saying historically that minnesota football sucks. that's just not the case, historically speaking. look at the national titles they collected since the beginning of college football to 1987. it sounds to me that you would like to vacant all football records because they didn't happen after the rise of mtv and the internet. if that's the case, minnesota football does suck. but most of us don't have ADD and believe the world started when we were born.

Well, I suppose I should point out first that Jack Morris was still with the Tigers in 1987 (he joined the Twins in 1991), but that mistake is not relevant to your argument. The point to my post was to give a sense of how much can change in 20 years. You're attacking Oklahoma based on things that happened 20 years ago - how many people who worked for the school's AD then are still there today? Everything is different now. I'm sure that many of the players on that team have college aged children by now!

And believe me, I'm not at all a believer that historical football is irrelevant... the Gophers' last Big Ten title came before I was born! History is very important to me. It does seem like most Badger fans think that the sport began in the early 1990's, however... :)

Judging a current program due to mistakes it made 20 years ago is unfair. 22 years ago, Lou Holtz left our program for Notre Dame and we got in trouble for some NCAA violations made under his watch - should we still be punished for that today? We've changed coaches 4 times since then. We've changed AD's at least 5 times since then. Those violations have nothing to do with today's team and how it is being run.

[kocurt]

20 years ago ain't that long ago, chief. i'm sure you like to brag about all of ou's national championships prior to 1987 or does the 2000 title count because the rest in "old" history? anyways, it is quite funny that you can say with a straight face that oklahoma football is one of cleanest program in the entire nation when they were just forced to vacant the 2005 season and give up scholarships the next couple of seasons. make sense to me for the governing body would subtract wins because they're the model of ethical, fair and honest standards.


Thats the point. OU is a very clean program run by an honest, ethical, and decent man (Stoops). Thats what makes it an injustice. You dont look to the NCAA as a moral guide I hope. They dont have a good track record for common sense or good judgment.

PS. 20 years ago is a huge difference. Been a lot of different folks running the show since then.