Where is the "Separation"?

[Jim]

Wait a minute. What happened to separation of church and state? Isn't the
White House publicly owned???????????...by the people? Where are the atheist
nut jobs that would protest and have the ear of the liberal media to have
this stopped if this were a Christian prayer meeting? What would have
happened if George Bush had held a Christian prayer meeting on the White
House lawn??????????



Washington, D.C. - On September 25th there will be a national prayer
gathering of Muslims on the west front of the U.S. Capitol Building. They
are expecting at least 50,000 to attend from mosques all across America.
They will gather to pray from 4:00 AM until 7:00 PM. The gathering will take
place by the site where U.S. Presidents have been inaugurated since 1981.
The organizers say that it was Obama's inauguration speech in January and
his speech broadcast from Egypt in June that gave them the idea for this
prayer gathering on Capitol Hill.


They have a website set up for this event. If you never look at another
website look at this one, especially the final words:

islamoncapitolhill.com

[HellYeahHokie]

What are you talking about Jim? Is Obama hosting this event? I don't see anything suggesting this is an government-sponsored prayer event.

And this stuff happens ALL the time. I grew up there. Prayer meetings, predominantly Christian are the norm. Abortion rallies, Million Man Marches, Martin Luther King's speech...all have Christian messages and prayers.

This seems like just another example of some partisans who are so blinded by ideology that they no longer continue to make any sense at all.

[Jim]

Wonder when the last Christian one was? Would it be regarded as a "Nazi rally" today? I mean Tea party's are regarded as such aren't they? And they're secular and full of Christians.

[MasterBevo]

Jim... "Freedom of Assembly".... It's IN there! look it up...

[HellYeahHokie]

Wonder when the last Christian one was? Would it be regarded as a "Nazi rally" today? I mean Tea party's are regarded as such aren't they? And they're secular and full of Christians.

When was the last Christian one?

How about 3 weeks ago.

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/4622211322.html

Free your mind, Jim.

[Spice1]

BAM! POW! SMACK!....Jim are you still there? This is the problem with the far right, even though I agree with several key points of the argument on the health care debate, I will not join in on the "tea party" until the conservative leaders decouple themselves from the people that are carrying the nazi signs, the racially tinged messages, and socialist BS.

[Hero1957]

Wait a minute. What happened to separation of church and state? Isn't the
White House publicly owned???????????...by the people? Where are the atheist
nut jobs that would protest and have the ear of the liberal media to have
this stopped if this were a Christian prayer meeting? What would have
happened if George Bush had held a Christian prayer meeting on the White
House lawn??????????



Washington, D.C. - On September 25th there will be a national prayer
gathering of Muslims on the west front of the U.S. Capitol Building. They
are expecting at least 50,000 to attend from mosques all across America.
They will gather to pray from 4:00 AM until 7:00 PM. The gathering will take
place by the site where U.S. Presidents have been inaugurated since 1981.
The organizers say that it was Obama's inauguration speech in January and
his speech broadcast from Egypt in June that gave them the idea for this
prayer gathering on Capitol Hill.


They have a website set up for this event. If you never look at another
website look at this one, especially the final words:

islamoncapitolhill.com

Why don't they have this meeting where the twin towers fell.

[HellYeahHokie]

Why don't they have this meeting where the twin towers fell.

That's an excellent question. However, I can also see how some people might be even more offended by that gesture.

The best thing they could do was hold this prayer rally, and spend it praying that their lunatic elements would embrace the "peace" elements of the Koran, and not the "kill the non-believers" part.

[Hero1957]

The best thing they could do was hold this prayer rally, and spend it praying that their lunatic elements would embrace the "peace" elements of the Koran, and not the "kill the non-believers" part.

TRUTH

[Jim]

I've heard, but haven't read, that in the Koran, Mohammed seems to contradict himself. Peace at one juncture and then kill the infidel at the next. They place the larger (often earlier) portions first but they order the "true word" by whatever was stated last - even if it contradicts the former. (1) Peace ... (2) Kill. Kill trumps Peace.

I've also heard, and its probably an absolute truth, that about 10-15% of the Muslim world is into this Jihad stuff. The peace loving Muslims are frightened to rise against this because there is no real counter to violence committed in Allah's name to them or anyone else. No supreme council that can "excommunicate", for lack of a better word, those who abuse their holy documents and tenants. But Mohammed seems to have authorized it. Perhaps if any Muslims are members of this forum they can clear this up. I'd really like to know how this maniacle behavior is justified and tolerated within their religious world. PS: Hope I spelled their prophet's name correctly.

[MasterBevo]

This is the problem with the far right, even though I agree with several key points of the argument on the health care debate, I will not join in on the "tea party" until the conservative leaders decouple themselves from the people that are carrying the nazi signs, the racially tinged messages, and socialist BS.

Spice... Grow up dude... There are NO leaders in the right that are carrying nazi signs.... or, being racist... Our opposition to Obama has NOTHING to do with race.. 'Socialist'?? Well.. yes, sorry.. but that's what he is. It's not really in dispute.

You may be uncomfortable with the term... but, I assure you.. Obama is NOT.

[HellYeahHokie]

I've heard, but haven't read, that in the Koran, Mohammed seems to contradict himself. Peace at one juncture and then kill the infidel at the next. They place the larger (often earlier) portions first but they order the "true word" by whatever was stated last - even if it contradicts the former. (1) Peace ... (2) Kill. Kill trumps Peace.

I've also heard, and its probably an absolute truth, that about 10-15% of the Muslim world is into this Jihad stuff. The peace loving Muslims are frightened to rise against this because there is no real counter to violence committed in Allah's name to them or anyone else. No supreme council that can "excommunicate", for lack of a better word, those who abuse their holy documents and tenants. But Mohammed seems to have authorized it. Perhaps if any Muslims are members of this forum they can clear this up. I'd really like to know how this maniacle behavior is justified and tolerated within their religious world. PS: Hope I spelled their prophet's name correctly.

It's tolerated for the same reason that people who kill abortion doctors are tolerated (by some) in the name of Christianity. And even though some people don't agree with the people who kill abortion doctors, they don't speak out, because ultimately they believe in the same cause.

Obviously this isn't true of all, or even most Christians, but the fundamental rational of using a holy text as a basis for violent actions is not restricted to Muslims.

What does seem to be different, is what you identified. The peace-loving Muslims do live in a fear of the radical militant ones (at least in other countries). I see no parallel that exists for Christians. Certainly that wasn't always the case. The Spanish Inquisition of yore seems no less troubling than the Taliban of today. We can only hope that Muslims don't take as long to get through their Dark Ages as Christians did.

[Spice1]

[QUOTE=MasterBevo;38373]Spice... Grow up dude... There are NO leaders in the right that are carrying nazi signs.... or, being racist... /QUOTE]


I didn't say that the leaders were holding the signs but EVERYBODY that is at a rally (and especially the leaders) should make it clear that those people with racist overtones are not welcome. Same with the socialist and czar talk...I have news for you, BOTH parties want to expand their power and the way they can do that is bigger government. I didn't see people on the right or Fox News calling Bush II a socialist even though his administration expanded government and took away personal liberty. Nobody compared Reagan to Stalin when he named the first drug Czar (with help from Joe Biden). It just makes it harder for me to make a counterpoint to the people that want to blindly follow Obama's lead on the healthcare debate.

My main point I try to make with the Obamacare folks is that I agree that everybody should have access to healthcare but if it increases our debt find a different way. If their claim is that it will be paid for with the savings and you will put in a trigger if it causes "even one penny more" of debt then why don't we reverse the triggers. When we recognize the savings THEN (and only then) phase in expansion of coverage.

[Jim]

Hopefully that will be the case. Unfortunately, over 700 years ago, when Islam was at its height, and accepting of others far moreso than at present, seemed to be the penacleyou refer to. If anything it has digressed as far as its tolerance goes. The role and treatment of women is certainly something not to be proud of.

Your example of the killing an abortion doctor is valid but what of the "enlightened" who feel the killing the unborn is acceptable? Also, there was an pro-life individual, who was simply a strong advocate for the unborn. He was shot down in cold blood. Didn't see any coverage. Your comments are most welcome.

"Abortion". A woman's right? Interesting position since I feel it most probable the object of that debate (a.k.a. the unborn) would most certainly have another opinion regarding his/her mother's "right".

[Jim]

Spice, am curious if anybody has been arrested or identified as having uttered or displayed what can be construed as "racist" signs? Allegations require substance for any of this is true. I would think the media would have nailed person(s) behaving in such a manner. Especially the Obama-friendly media. It is extremely convenient and easy to call anybody who disagrees with this administration "racist". It is a trigger word that works quite effectively be it the truth or not. And the subjects being advocated have nothing to do with race and the concerns expressed have nothing to do with race. But, "race" is why it those allegations are being employed. It is convenient and cheap. However, we know that proof is supposed to trump allegation or even veiled suggestion. Until I see verifiable truth I will continue to think it is a ploy used against those legitimately expressing their concerns. Do people who have a race issue exist? I'm sure of it. But "haters" are universal regardless of political pursuasion. As a side note - I'd like to see Pelosi verify her claims - as well as those levelled at the CIA.

[HellYeahHokie]

Your example of the killing an abortion doctor is valid but what of the "enlightened" who feel the killing the unborn is acceptable? Also, there was an pro-life individual, who was simply a strong advocate for the unborn. He was shot down in cold blood. Didn't see any coverage. Your comments are most welcome.

I'm not about to turn this into a abortion debate. But I did see coverage of the pro-life person getting killed. And I think the killing of this man or of abortion doctor's is immoral and condemnable.

[EvilVodka]

Yo mama so fat she goes to a restuarant, looks at the menu and says "okay!" :D

oh sorry, we're talking politics...

[Bucs90]

If anyone listened to Obama's UN speech today, it's quite obvious he intends to sell us off to Europe, China and Russia. It was the most embarrassing moment for the US presidency I've witnessed in my 35 years. Just an absolute surrender to the world.

I truly believe Obama WANTS our country weakened to standards deemed acceptable by the rest of the world. He WANTS that. Why? Who knows. But he is intentionally making moves that weaken our power in the world.

[Jim]

Bucs90, I concur with your assessment. But I do believe his role in all of this is strictly as a hood ornament for the infantile masses, so coddled by the international socialists, to revel in and make a rock star of. The people who actually want "his" agenda to succeed are among the stuipdist and most intellectually lazy people this nation has ever produced. Those controlling the strings are internationalists acting through the contivance of many of these social organizations such as TIDES, ACORN, APOLLO et al.

A feudal system run by elites with the people relegated to a plantation existence where promescuity is promoted - the drug of diversion and indulgence and ultimate slavery. Fracturing society as a massive collection of us vs. them camps venting all of their energy on one another while the puppet masters sit back, write the scripts for each to playout and collect all the wealth at the gate.

Sad thing about all of this Bucs is that he is ushering in exactly what he said he and his wife, Michelle, said he was goingto usher in. A "fundamental transformation" where you will be "forced" to adopt the marching orders mandated by your superiors. Our congress has been exposed for exactly what it is - a collection of self serving cowards who have legalized your enslavement while thinking they will escape the consequences of their actions. Many are jockeying around for a favored spot in the new world order. Most will be dealt with for being exactly what they are. They will be among the first cut as they've served their purpose.

I must say, even though it pains me to do so, that the diabolical scheming and planning carried forth for the past century (began with Teddy Roosevelt, carried by Woodrow Wilson with major implementations by FDR, LBJ's Great Society) has been nothing short of genius. It gained total control of our underbelly when it hijacked our public educational system. It gained the eyes, ears and voice of the American society with the media in all forms.

I feel as though this recent surge by true conservatives and patriots is much like "The Alamo" and we're the ones inside the fortress.

[HellYeahHokie]

If anyone listened to Obama's UN speech today, it's quite obvious he intends to sell us off to Europe, China and Russia. It was the most embarrassing moment for the US presidency I've witnessed in my 35 years. Just an absolute surrender to the world.

I truly believe Obama WANTS our country weakened to standards deemed acceptable by the rest of the world. He WANTS that. Why? Who knows. But he is intentionally making moves that weaken our power in the world.

You are so right. Demanding that the rest of the world take responsibility for the world's problems and stop relying (or blaming) the United States is such an embarrassing message. I was horrified.

[Jim]

Words as opposed to actions HYH. Which do you feel is a more reliable measure?

[Spice1]

Spice, am curious if anybody has been arrested or identified as having uttered or displayed what can be construed as "racist" signs? Allegations require substance for any of this is true. I would think the media would have nailed person(s) behaving in such a manner. Especially the Obama-friendly media. It is extremely convenient and easy to call anybody who disagrees with this administration "racist". It is a trigger word that works quite effectively be it the truth or not. And the subjects being advocated have nothing to do with race and the concerns expressed have nothing to do with race. But, "race" is why it those allegations are being employed. It is convenient and cheap. However, we know that proof is supposed to trump allegation or even veiled suggestion. Until I see verifiable truth I will continue to think it is a ploy used against those legitimately expressing their concerns. Do people who have a race issue exist? I'm sure of it. But "haters" are universal regardless of political pursuasion. As a side note - I'd like to see Pelosi verify her claims - as well as those levelled at the CIA.

See...this is exactly what I am talking about....you didn't even mention the fact that I oppose the Obamacare (as it has been presented). Instead, you refuse to recognize that there are fanatics that are simply protesting Obama (whatever the issue or his stance) on the basis of race. Until the conservatives get the nerve to further isolate these nutjobs (as they finally realized with the birthers) the message will get lost. I find it disheartening that the debate is taking place in this environment.

[Jim]

Again, please cite me examples of opposition due to Obama's race. I have basically admitted that racists exist. On this we can agree however, I think most of them are white liberals and progressives. They're the ones who keep emphasizing the difference between whites and non-whites. And, if I can be clearly realistic, racism isn't an attribute unique to whites.

[MasterBevo]

EVERYBODY that is at a rally (and especially the leaders) should make it clear that those people with racist overtones are not welcome.

I attended the Tea Party rally in Louisville.. and, I saw NO SIGNS anywhere with the slightest hint of racism. I did, however, see SEVERAL African-Americans attending ... and, they were welcomed by all.

Also... the rally was held in a park... where, just a few feet away, was a very large group that appeared to be a black family celebrating a birthday or something... there were 50-60 of them...and, there were NO INCIDENTS... with nearly 3000 Tea Party people at the same location.

This "racism" charge is being trumped up by the left... because, they've got nothing else.


I didn't see people on the right or Fox News calling Bush II a socialist even though his administration expanded government and took away personal liberty.

Then... you weren't paying attention. Glenn Beck, for one... routinely called (and still calls) George Bush a "socialist". Why do you think W's approval rating collapsed so low? You think people on the Right started dis-liking him because he was TOO Conservative??

[Hero1957]

Same with the socialist and czar talk

Obama created the Socialist talk when he looked at a man who got up in the morning before light to go to work and told him he would have to share what he worked for. OBama created it and it will NOT go away. Blame it on whomever you will. He started it and it is here to stay.

I don't care how many Czars there are. When they are as radical as some of the ones he has appointed, he will hear it from me. Some of these guys are loons.

I thought Richard Nixon was a Socialist and have said it on many occasions.
I though George W Bush was a conservative when I voted for him and thought he should have been caned when he left office. I don't cut slack to any politician.

[NCT]

Again, please cite me examples of opposition due to Obama's race. I have basically admitted that racists exist. On this we can agree however, I think most of them are white liberals and progressives. They're the ones who keep emphasizing the difference between whites and non-whites. And, if I can be clearly realistic, racism isn't an attribute unique to whites.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/09/15/quijano.tea.party.racial.cnn

More telling, to me, than the ridiculous witch doctor image (that's been pushed all over the internet by conservative activists) is the statement by one of the tea party organizers acknowledging the racists among his movement's supporters. You might not think there are racists in the movement, but its organizers know there are.

[NCT]

I think you're misunderstanding, BeVO. I don't think anyone (here or anywhere else) has claimed that the tea party stuff is fundamentally a racist movement or that a huge segment of its supporters are motivated by racism. Your statement that some incident didn't break out when there was a group of African Americans nearby is just silly. I mean really, really silly. The organizers and promoters of the tea party stuff and other anti-Obama rallies are not, I believe, motivated by racial hatred. But they know that a significant number of people are attracted to their movement because of their own anti-black feelings, and they do nothing to discourage that. They'll take their followers where they can get them, including from irrational haters. And I believe that is irresponsible and dangerous.

[MasterBevo]

NCT...

I just do not agree with you at ALL on this.... Race has ZERO, ZIP, NADA to do with the motivation of the Tea Party gang.... or, it's leaders. There's plenty of reasons to be motivated that have NOTHING to do with race. It's fear.... FEAR of our country going bankrupt. That's not a black/white issue. And, I think YOU should be worried too.

Silly? hah! You weren't walking through that park. Frankly... I was a little worried.. for myself. This was in an area of town that has known a little daytime violence. This was a large group... of some gangsta looking folks.... I thought it was a good testament to both groups that no incidents happened.

[MasterBevo]

the ridiculous witch doctor image (that's been pushed all over the internet by conservative activists) .

NCT... As I conservative... I like to think I hang out "all over the internet at Conservative sites"... I've been a member of Free Republic since 1998....

I swear to you... YOUR POST is the FIRST TIME I've seen this witch doctor picture that you claim our side is pushing... Who is pushing it??? Hmnnnn....

Is it in poor taste? yea.. probably.. racist? I dunno... I think it's kind of funny. No worse that some things I saw about W.

[NCT]

Are you doing this on purpose? Try to read this very carefully: no one is saying that the tea party movement is racially motivated. No one is saying that the tea party movement is racially motivated. No one is saying that the tea party movement is racially motivated.

I'm done engaging you if you're going to make up arguments to attribute to me.

[NCT]

Is it in poor taste? yea.. probably.. racist? I dunno... I think it's kind of funny. No worse that some things I saw about W.

And I believe your attitude is irresponsible and dangerous.

[Hero1957]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/09/15/quijano.tea.party.racial.cnn

More telling, to me, than the ridiculous witch doctor image (that's been pushed all over the internet by conservative activists) is the statement by one of the tea party organizers acknowledging the racists among his movement's supporters. You might not think there are racists in the movement, but its organizers know there are.

I watched the video.
Your post is the first I have seen with this image.
Did you watch the entire Video?
CNN, to their credit, makes it part of their report that
radicals have been a part of ALL grass roots protests.
I saw the "joker image" with OBama and with GWB.

Like it or not, racism is alive and well in America.
Politicians use it to keep us divided and unfocused to the real
corrupt nature of their actions. When I say politicians I mean every single one including BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA.

Go back to your sword drill and remember, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood". I wish we would all put aside the nonsense and focus on the "wickedness in high places".

The powers that be are so good at keeping us divided. I fear we will never be aware enough of what is going on to confront those who are pillaging our country in front of our eyes.

[Jim]

NCT - there you go again mixing up the kool-aid and drinking it yourself. "Anti Obama rallies". These rallies/gatherings/protestss are against the POLICIES BEING PUSHED !!! How is this ANTI-OBAMA and hence your allegations as being racist in truth. You watch CNN? What a moron !!! Try watching/listening to Glenn Beck and you'll find that he isn't Joseph Goebbles like they claim. Are you more protectionist of this administration or more "get after anything not progressive/socialist"? Stop letting hte progressives intimidate you. If you look long enough and hard enough you can find anything you want to find.

And the following is from me and nobody else ... I know you'd love to attribute this to the Tea Party crowd but ...

Are those who support Obama on the up and up and outstanding citizens? Why don't you try analyzing your sources that support your positions. Check out the bus loads of goons all wearing the same t-shirts with quality produced signs. There are your marching drones with single chants. Those folks are PRO-OBAMA. They are making this out to be a clash of white vs. black, rich vs. poor, right vs. left. They are the tension generators. Tea Party's started otu with citizens expressing their concerns to legislators but the government brought in its goons to keep the rank and file in its place. Stupid cattle and village idiots. Truly the lowest on the intellectual ladder. Those who took their Oaths of Fealty are keeping those trying to remain free inside the corral.

You'll find your folks have an agenda and you're rights don't count for a hill of beans with them. Morons en masse - the new republic in the elitists eyes. Look back to the dark ages to see where they're trying to lead us. Hey, it apparently works for the Imams and the Muslim horde so why not adopt and try it on us westerners? Change is one thing NCT but ther are different kinds of change and this path is not a good one. Stop giving the progressive/socialists a pass. Your turn will eventually come up to get rolled over by them. And if you want to talk of racism and hidden agendas I strongly suggest you wake the hell up and check out the stench in this administration and the cronies he has surrounded himself with. What a pile of sick, twisted Orwellean and RACIST garbage this lying administration is.

[Jim]

Are you doing this on purpose? Try to read this very carefully: no one is saying that the tea party movement is racially motivated. No one is saying that the tea party movement is racially motivated. No one is saying that the tea party movement is racially motivated.

I'm done engaging you if you're going to make up arguments to attribute to me.

The media and elements of the congress are very strongly suggesting ANY OPPOSITION to this administration is RACIST. Haven't you been paying attention to the clear double standard carried by the progressive/socialists in congress (when it came to Bush) and how it it taboo now (when it comes to Obama). I mean how friggin' binary does it have to get?

Even that leftist-loving BJ artist, David Letterman, can't drop to his knees quick or often enough to give this guy free access. He actually thinks he matters in this progressive/socialist movement (like the retarded pretenders in Hollywood). Recall his nightly jokes aimed squarely at Bush? Where are they now? Comedian or just a plain CS'r. In Stalinist times old Davie would be the first one lined up a shot through the head after he served his purpose. But safely for Davie, the new USSR didn't have TV then.

[MasterBevo]

And I believe your attitude is irresponsible and dangerous.

Uh... yea.. Check back with me when someone produces a critically acclaimed movie about how to assasinated President Obama.

That poster is a weak attempt at humor... nothing more.

[MasterBevo]

But they know that a significant number of people are attracted to their movement because of their own anti-black feelings, and they do nothing to discourage that.

If the people with racist motives aren't coming to the rallies... what more should the Tea Party leaders be doing? Why should they talk about something they don't accept or support?

Really... I find your logic here pretty weak. They're NOT racially motivated, but, they're not doing enough to discourage people who are racially motivated... but, aren't coming to the rallies??

[Bucs90]

You are so right. Demanding that the rest of the world take responsibility for the world's problems and stop relying (or blaming) the United States is such an embarrassing message. I was horrified.

Problem is they WON'T. We know the UN is worthless. Much of the rest of the world is worthless. Without the United States, no one would have stopped Japan or Germany in WW2. No one would have haulted the Soviet Union. No one is preventing China from taking Taiwan, and anything else they want, except the US.

Why is it the liberal left continues to cling to the koombaya mentality that we can all come together and solve the worlds problems as equals? We can't. Look at the tsunami. The US gave BY FAR the most money and we were first on scene, along with Australia, to help those people, as the UN and the rest of the world criticized us for not doing more.

We are the world's lone superpower (at least until Obama is finished with us). It is OUR JOB to handle the worlds critical problems. Like it or not, it's reality.

Other reality may include the fact that there are evil men in the world, and evil or naive men who will follow them, all of whom will listen to no reasoning or logic and thus must be killed by brave men with guns. Period. There is no other truth in the world to counter that fact. The United States is full of brave tough men who are willing to take up arms and offer to kill the evil in this world, foreign and domestically, when that evil refuses to comply with social norms.

But, Obama will continue to plea to the world to hold hands together and talk it out. That shit works in Harvard study groups. Not on foreign battlefields or crime infested streets.

[Bucs90]

Obama created the Socialist talk when he looked at a man who got up in the morning before light to go to work and told him he would have to share what he worked for. OBama created it and it will NOT go away. Blame it on whomever you will. He started it and it is here to stay.

I don't care how many Czars there are. When they are as radical as some of the ones he has appointed, he will hear it from me. Some of these guys are loons.

I thought Richard Nixon was a Socialist and have said it on many occasions.
I though George W Bush was a conservative when I voted for him and thought he should have been caned when he left office. I don't cut slack to any politician.

The Joe the Plumber quote needs to be touched on one more time. He told Joe that he doesn't want to take anything from him, but he wanted to spread the wealth and "make sure those below you have the same chance".

Think about that. About Obama's mindset. Was Joe born with ownership of his business? Or with years of hard work invested into his job? Years of good work, timeliness, responsibility? No. Joe, just like those currently below him, was born without all that.

See, those below Joe HAD the same chance over the last 10, 15, 20 years to do what Joe did, but they failed. Joe outworked them. Outsmarted them, whatever hid did, he did it better. Obama wants to eliminate the results of outworking or outsmarting competition. He feels it is unfair to those you beat if you beat them. If those people below Joe had worked harder, gotten a better education, showed up on time more, kept good credit, etc, then they would be where Joe is. But they didn't. Now Obama is promising to erase their years of irresponsible behavior and reset the playing field "fairly".

[Jim]

Its called lose one vote but buy many "dependent/dependable" votes.