Big Ten Scheduling

[GatorGrad]

Interesting article...

http://cfn.scout.com/2/854033.html

[CJHawkeyes]

As much as people hate that the Big Ten does not have a better format, going round robin does not help the conference where the BCS format is concerned. It makes no sense to guarantee its members 11 extra losses because outsiders and some insiders are disatisfied with co-champions when guaranteeing a single champion has no extra national title or BCS benefits. A round robin schedule would be fun but unless its comes with a guaranteed playoff berth, there is no compelling reason for the Big Ten undermine its members' national hopes just to have one champion.

[JamesHowell]

A round robin didn't seem to help the Big 12 South last season.

[NCT]

A round robin didn't seem to help the Big 12 South last season.

We have a similar problem in the SEC from time to time. We can have co-champions of the divisions, but not co-champions of the conference. I believe there are no tie-breakers for naming division champions, either. The tie-breakers are for deciding which co-champion represents the division in the championship game.

[EvilVodka]

yep, no doubt Big 10 scheduling sucks, and these big 10 fools think its actually good!

[MFootball]

They're also suggesting that UM and OSU should play another game after their meeting, which would fly over alot less effectively than a lead balloon.

[GatorGrad]

They're also suggesting that UM and OSU should play another game after their meeting, which would fly over alot less effectively than a lead balloon.

Who is suggesting that UM and OSU should play another game after their meeting?

[EvilVodka]

Who is suggesting that UM and OSU should play another game after their meeting?

Michigan fans who think it might take two tries to beat the Buckeyes :eek:

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

When I read some of these posts, I think of you guys in a Cialis or Viagra commercial.

Big 10 schedules a large number of non-conference games against quality opponents from quality conferences. The SEC does not, FSU and SoCal do as well as do many Big 12 teams.

Historically, the OSU-Mich game winner has win the Big 10 more than 50% and pehaps up to 67% of the times. That's what is being referred to as the rematch game. And Mich and OSU play road games against top teams during the regular and bowl seasons. So when SEC teams complain about winning road SEC games sometimes known as neutral site games, they should extrapolate that further in contemplating what a road game at SoCal, Penn State or Oklahoma would be like. Only then would an SEC fan in denial begin to heal and understand what real scheduling is all about.

[GatorGrad]

When I read some of these posts, I think of you guys in a Cialis or Viagra commercial.

Which posts, specifically, are you referring to?


Big 10 schedules a large number of non-conference games against quality opponents from quality conferences.

Who here ripped Big Ten scheduling?


Historically, the OSU-Mich game winner has win the Big 10 more than 50% and pehaps up to 67% of the times. That's what is being referred to as the rematch game.

I still don't understand why anyone is assuming a rematch. If the Big Ten ever added a 12th team with two divisions and a CCG, I'm willing to bet that Michigan and Ohio State would be in the same division. Thus, their game at the end of the year could decide the division title and who moves on to the Big Ten Championship Game, but in that scenario there would be no chance of a rematch in back to back weeks.


And Mich and OSU play road games against top teams during the regular and bowl seasons. So when SEC teams complain about winning road SEC games sometimes known as neutral site games, they should extrapolate that further in contemplating what a road game at SoCal, Penn State or Oklahoma would be like. Only then would an SEC fan in denial begin to heal and understand what real scheduling is all about.

Again, who here was ripping Michigan or OSU's OOC schedule? The topic was about Big Ten Conference Scheduling. I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing against "SEC fans" about scheduling. Are you sure you're responding to the correct thread on the correct message board?

[NCT]

When I read some of these posts, I think of you guys in a Cialis or Viagra commercial.

Big 10 schedules a large number of non-conference games against quality opponents from quality conferences. The SEC does not, FSU and SoCal do as well as do many Big 12 teams.

Historically, the OSU-Mich game winner has win the Big 10 more than 50% and pehaps up to 67% of the times. That's what is being referred to as the rematch game. And Mich and OSU play road games against top teams during the regular and bowl seasons. So when SEC teams complain about winning road SEC games sometimes known as neutral site games, they should extrapolate that further in contemplating what a road game at SoCal, Penn State or Oklahoma would be like. Only then would an SEC fan in denial begin to heal and understand what real scheduling is all about.

Are you serious? Michigan has eight - EIGHT! - home games in 2009? Their OOC slate is Notre Dame, Western Michigan, Eastern Michigan, and Delaware State -- all in Ann Arbor? This is the Big 10 example of "a large number of non-conference games against quality opponents from quality conferences"?

Really?

If this is your idea of "what real scheduling is all about", then you're going to have to do a better job of explaining what "real scheduling" is.

[Don]

When I read some of these posts, I think of you guys in a Cialis or Viagra commercial.

Big 10 schedules a large number of non-conference games against quality opponents from quality conferences. The SEC does not, FSU and SoCal do as well as do many Big 12 teams.

Historically, the OSU-Mich game winner has win the Big 10 more than 50% and pehaps up to 67% of the times. That's what is being referred to as the rematch game. And Mich and OSU play road games against top teams during the regular and bowl seasons. So when SEC teams complain about winning road SEC games sometimes known as neutral site games, they should extrapolate that further in contemplating what a road game at SoCal, Penn State or Oklahoma would be like. Only then would an SEC fan in denial begin to heal and understand what real scheduling is all about.

In the BCS era, the Big Ten teams have collectively played 39 OOC BCS opponents in the regular season that winning records (after removing head-to-head games i.e., no counting the game vs the Big Ten team) in AWAY games. Of those 39 opponents, 23 were ranked and an incredible 5 ended up in the top 10. Of the Big Ten teams 9 out of 11 played ranked opponents and an amazing 4 out of the 11 played a top 10 team.

The cowardly SEC on the other hand played ONLY 44 OOC BCS opponents in the regular season that had winning records in AWAY games. Of those a mere 27 were ranked and ONLY 12 ended up in the top 10. In contrast 11 of those wimps in the SEC played a ranked opponents and only 8 of the cowardly &@$tards had the guts to play a top 10 team.

[HellYeahHokie]

Michigan ducked VT for a kickoff classic game several years ago. A chance to play in the Meadowlands for a nice payday. Carr gave up the payday rather than face a tough OOC opponent. Game went to Penn State vs Arizona instead.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

Since 1986, Michigan has played ND many times, Washington, FSU, Miami and Oregon when they were top 5 teams. Add UCLA and App St to the list.

Carr decided against VaTech as it was already playing 2 tough OOC games that year.

Ohio State played Texas and SoCal OOC recently.

Only Oklahoma, FSU and maybe SoCal and VaTech can compare.

No specific numbers needed to support my case. However, one can go back in time and see how well Mich OOC opponents did during years in which the Michigan played them. 800 is a relevant number though. Long before scores were inflated, Hail posted an 800 in the math portion of the SAT. Now, Hail masters the use of words as a lawyer. So, read my words closely even the misspelled ones.

[GatorGrad]

Hail,

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Go back and read the first initial posts in this thread. No one ripped Big Ten Scheduling and no SEC fans were dissing it. This thread was simply sharing a link to an article discussing the Big Ten Conference Schedule and how it would look if it ever went to a round robin. You then started talking about viagra commercials, and seemingly created an argument out of thin air.

Now of course some SEC fans are debating what you said but that wasn't the intended course of this thread until your prior post. Now for some reason "no specific numbers are needed to support your case," you are referring to yourself in 3rd person, and bragging about scoring an 800 on the math section of the SAT? I'm confused. By the way, ask NCT what his SAT score was and what his profession is.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

GatorGrad,
Sorry to have steered your thread off course. I think you're around my age and many on this message board are older and recycle stale arguments sometimes. I'm not referring to you personally in my posts on this thread.
How does Florida look this spring?

[NCT]

By the way, ask NCT what his SAT score was and what his profession is.

I don't know if I want to get into a battle over numbers I racked up 25 years ago. I apologize for being baited, GG. I shouldn't have participated in the thread's misdirection. I'm just a dumb Southern boy who wasn't paying attention. Maybe if I had more sense, I would have gotten those four questions right that I missed on the LSAT and could have bettered myself outside the region.

[CJHawkeyes]

This sport is built around the prevention and avoidance of competition. It seems pointless to argue who is better at the playing the game as is.

[GatorGrad]

Hail - No apology needed, I was just confused. It was as if your response belonged on another thread or as if you didn't read the original article and assumed that it was bashing Big Ten OOC Scheduling.

NCT - I just thought it was funny that Hail mentioned his 800 SAT score in math and the fact that he was a lawyer in response to something you had written, as if that makes his argument any more legit, when if I am not mistaken you had a similar SAT score and are a lawyer yourself.

It's all good boys...back to the topic I intended...Big Ten Conference Games. I understand that a round robin (10 conference games) is not realistic at all given the current landscape. Has there been any more talk lately about adding a 12th team to stage a CCG? If Notre Dame won't come, how about Syracuse, Pitt, or Iowa State? I think that a Big Ten Championship Game would be a huge success, especially at a neutral indoor site like Ford Field in Detroit or Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis. It would be a great event and a solid addition to the first Saturday in December.

[Don]

There are sooooo many problems with this post I don't know where to start!!

Before I do start however, I will remind you that YOU brought up the top 5 thing!

Since 1986, Michigan has played ND many times, Washington, FSU, Miami and Oregon when they were top 5 teams. Add UCLA and App St to the list.

App St (a D1AA team) is NOW a quality opponent?? What list are you adding App St to ...the list of top 5 opponents???????


Ohio State played Texas and SoCal OOC recently.

Only Oklahoma, FSU and maybe SoCal and VaTech can compare.

I don't want to start anything with the Buckeye fans as THEY didn't start this thing...but... I will say that OSU has played only 3 OOC top 5 opponents since 1986. You named 2 of them (3rd was LSU in 1987).


Certainly, you are NOT saying that only Oklahoma, FSU, SoCal, Michigan and maybe VT play really tough OOC opponents??

First, let's bust that inflated ego of yours. Since 1986 Michigan has played only SEVEN, I repeat SEVEN OOC opponents in the regular season that ended the year ranked in the top 5. Of course, 5 of the 7 were home games for Michigan and UM record? 0-6-1. The 7 opponents were: ND 4 times, FSU, Miami, and Colorado. As for your other teams listed, Oklahoma has played exactly ONE OOC top 5 opponent during the regular season since 1986 and was Miami IN 1986. USC has played EIGHT. The ONLY one listed that can brag is FSU.

Since 1986, Florida, Florida St., Miami (FL), San Diego St., BYU, Michigan St., Washington, Texas, USC, and Rice have played more OOC top 5 teams than Michigan.

For the record, UF has played 18, that is EIGHTEEN, OOC Top 5 opponents in the regular season since 1986. That includes, beating FSU in 1991 IN Tallahassee 14-9 the same year that FSU beat Michigan IN Ann Arbor 51-31. Despite these facts, UF ended the year with the same record as UM but ranked behind them in the polls. UF has played Miami 4 times and FSU 14 times since 1986 and all of those were top 5 teams.

In addition, UF played 14 SEC teams (UF 6-8) that ended the year in the top 5 vs 13 opponents (UM 6-7) played by UM in the Big Ten.

Both UM and UF have played 6 Bowl teams that ended the year in the top 5 (UF 3-3, UM 0-6).

For the record, Michigan is 1-29-1 vs OOC Top 5 teams in their entire HISTORY! The sole victory was in 1951 when UM beat California at a neutral site. Of the 31 games played by Michigan against OOC top 5 opponents only 4 were AWAY games, 13 were in AA, and 13 at neutral sites.

By comparison, UF has played only 28 OOC top 5 teams, 11 Home, 11 Away and 6 Neutral. UF is 8-19-1 in those games. UF is a Johnie-come-lately to these games. The first time UF played on OOC team that ended up in the top 5 was in 1976! UM had played 12 games before UF played their first.

UM is 0-17-1 vs OOC top 5 teams in the regular season in their entire history.

You brought up the top 5 thing!

[HellYeahHokie]

I'm just pleased that in a the course of this arguement, Virginia Tech was mentioned as a team known for tough scheduling. For a long time,when no big name school was willing to give us a home-home, I had to defend VT's scheduling because everyone says it was built on cupcakes and ducking tough OOC games. I'm glad my defense of the Hokies scheduling philosophy has been validated.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

Hail - No apology needed, I was just confused. It was as if your response belonged on another thread or as if you didn't read the original article and assumed that it was bashing Big Ten OOC Scheduling.

NCT - I just thought it was funny that Hail mentioned his 800 SAT score in math and the fact that he was a lawyer in response to something you had written, as if that makes his argument any more legit, when if I am not mistaken you had a similar SAT score and are a lawyer yourself.

It's all good boys...back to the topic I intended...Big Ten Conference Games. I understand that a round robin (10 conference games) is not realistic at all given the current landscape. Has there been any more talk lately about adding a 12th team to stage a CCG? If Notre Dame won't come, how about Syracuse, Pitt, or Iowa State? I think that a Big Ten Championship Game would be a huge success, especially at a neutral indoor site like Ford Field in Detroit or Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis. It would be a great event and a solid addition to the first Saturday in December.

---

My post was not in response to NCT's post as I know he is an attorney. It was a general post in response to the collective posts preceding. So is true of my first post when I was replying not to the article but to the posts made by others following your original post. Maybe I should address someone more directly or specify that my post is a general one.

[GatorGrad]

Gotcha...I assume then you were responding to EV?

He's an LSU Grad, yes....but an FSU fan! :eek:

[ZOOMBAG]

It will knock out almost any hope of a two-BCS bid league.

[ZOOMBAG]

Florida and Tennessee and even Alabama get a pass in the SEC OOC schedule bashing. Alabama used to travel all over the place, playing top teams. Tennessee has always made big road trips out to California for tough OOC games. Florida was stuck with FSU during that 14 year FSU run with fop 4 finishes, and played Miami when they were top 10. Unfortunately for Florida both those schools have fallen on hard times.

The rest of the SEC is pretty much cowardly when it comes to OOC scheduling, especially among big dogs like Georgia and Auburn. LSU used to go to A&M a lot when A&M was good, but haven't done much lately. USC plays Clemson every year, for what that's worth. Arkansas plays Texas at times. Miss, Miss St seldom play anyone worth much OOC, although Miss St did play BYU home and home when BYU was pretty good.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

Don, your stats are skewed in their presentation. When Michigan defeats a then-current top 5 team, those teams often finish outside of the top 5. How did you account for Michigan defeating 2 or 3 Ohio State teams in the 90s which were undefeated or otherwise headed to a natl title-deciding bowl game.

However, what you did illuminate is the number of times a top 5 team had defeated Michigan to elevate or maintain their top 5 ranking.

[Don]

Don, your stats are skewed in their presentation. When Michigan defeats a then-current top 5 team, those teams often finish outside of the top 5. How did you account for Michigan defeating 2 or 3 Ohio State teams in the 90s which were undefeated or otherwise headed to a natl title-deciding bowl game.

However, what you did illuminate is the number of times a top 5 team had defeated Michigan to elevate or maintain their top 5 ranking.

that's a cop-out. I gave you stats on the year rankings not game rankings. Beating 1 top5 team in week 1 may not mean much. You say that when UM beats a top 5 team that team falls out of the top yet somehow UF has beaten 9 teams since 1990 for their only loss of the season and 8 of them still ended the year in the top 5.
Date ...........H/V........ Opponent.......... W/L........... Score...Record............ Year Rank....... Game Rank
09/14/1991 ....H.......... Alabama............ W............. 35-0....(11-1-0).......... (5/5)................ (16/0)
01/01/1994 ....N.......... West Virginia...... W............. 41-7....(11-1-0).......... (7/6)................ (3/2)
12/03/1994 ....N.......... Alabama............ W............. 24-23 ...(12-1-0)......... (5/4)................ (3/3)
09/16/1995 ....H.......... Tennessee......... W............. 62-37 ...(11-1-0)......... (3/2)................ (8/12)
01/02/1997 ....N.......... Florida St........... W............. 52-20 ...(11-1-0)......... (3/3)................ (1/1)
11/22/1997 ....H.......... Florida St........... W............. 32-29 ...(11-1-0)......... (3/3)................ (2/1)
11/02/2002 ....N.......... Georgia.............. W............. 20-13 ...(13-1-0)......... (3/3)................ (5/5)
10/11/2003 ....V.......... LSU.................. W.............. 19-7.....(13-1-0)......... (2/1)................ (6/6)
01/08/2007 ....N.......... Ohio St.............. W............. 41-14 ...(12-1-0)......... (2/2)................ (1/1)


For the record UM has played 20 teams that were ranked in the top 5 at game time since 1990. UM is 10-9-1 against them. Of the 10 wins only 2 of those ended up in the top 5 and 8 outside. Of the 9 losses, 7 ended up in the top5 and 2 outside. The lone tie ended up in the top 5.

UF has played 34 teams that were games ranked in the top 5. UF is 20-14 against them. Of the 20 wins, 13 ended up outside the top 5 and 7 inside.
Of the 14 losses, only 1 ended up outside the top 5 ( 5 of these losses were to the eventual #1 team).

[CJHawkeyes]

While it is impressive that Florida has handed that many teams their only loss, most teams are going to have very poor records versus teams that finish in the top five precisely because such teams usually only lose once. No matter how good a team is, there is a significant degree of luck involved in beating a team that still finishes in the top five.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

that's a cop-out. I gave you stats on the year rankings not game rankings. Beating 1 top5 team in week 1 may not mean much. You say that when UM beats a top 5 team that team falls out of the top yet somehow UF has beaten 9 teams since 1990 for their only loss of the season and 8 of them still ended the year in the top 5.
Date ...........H/V........ Opponent.......... W/L........... Score...Record............ Year Rank....... Game Rank
09/14/1991 ....H.......... Alabama............ W............. 35-0....(11-1-0).......... (5/5)................ (16/0)
01/01/1994 ....N.......... West Virginia...... W............. 41-7....(11-1-0).......... (7/6)................ (3/2)
12/03/1994 ....N.......... Alabama............ W............. 24-23 ...(12-1-0)......... (5/4)................ (3/3)
09/16/1995 ....H.......... Tennessee......... W............. 62-37 ...(11-1-0)......... (3/2)................ (8/12)
01/02/1997 ....N.......... Florida St........... W............. 52-20 ...(11-1-0)......... (3/3)................ (1/1)
11/22/1997 ....H.......... Florida St........... W............. 32-29 ...(11-1-0)......... (3/3)................ (2/1)
11/02/2002 ....N.......... Georgia.............. W............. 20-13 ...(13-1-0)......... (3/3)................ (5/5)
10/11/2003 ....V.......... LSU.................. W.............. 19-7.....(13-1-0)......... (2/1)................ (6/6)
01/08/2007 ....N.......... Ohio St.............. W............. 41-14 ...(12-1-0)......... (2/2)................ (1/1)


For the record UM has played 20 teams that were ranked in the top 5 at game time since 1990. UM is 10-9-1 against them. Of the 10 wins only 2 of those ended up in the top 5 and 8 outside. Of the 9 losses, 7 ended up in the top5 and 2 outside. The lone tie ended up in the top 5.

UF has played 34 teams that were games ranked in the top 5. UF is 20-14 against them. Of the 20 wins, 13 ended up outside the top 5 and 7 inside.
Of the 14 losses, only 1 ended up outside the top 5 ( 5 of these losses were to the eventual #1 team).

---

Other than the win against Ohio State in Arizona, Florida has not had such a memorable win outside of its home stadium or region. The facts that you present here support claims that Florida refuses to or does not play top notch opponents in a true away/road game. When they start doing that, then we'll discuss this matter further.

[GatorGrad]

---

Other than the win against Ohio State in Arizona, Florida has not had such a memorable win outside of its home stadium or region. The facts that you present here support claims that Florida refuses to or does not play top notch opponents in a true away/road game. When they start doing that, then we'll discuss this matter further.

So playing at FSU or Miami doesn't count because they are in the state? Is Michigan traveling to South Bend for a game @ Notre Dame more of a "true away game" than Florida playing FSU in Tallahassee? Come on.

[ZOOMBAG]

Most of the time Florida beat a top 5 team it was earlier in the season when the team they beat had time to recover their ranking. Only exception was ever FSU at the end, but a lot Michigan's wins were usually over Ohio St at the very end of the season or a Bowl Game when the loser has no chance to recover from the inevitable 7-8 position drop in ranking.

The FSU games are bit of bad example as well because both schools are in each other's back yards. Now if Mich annually played a top 10 Mich St, you'd have something comparable. It's a much bigger deal to travel 500+ miles and sleeping in a strange bed, to play a game than busing an hour up the road the day of the game....

Also a big deal is Florida in bowl games. Most of Florida's Bowl games, if not in Florida, outright, are in nearby southeastern venues. The big exception was that trip in 1995/6 they made to Tempe and that didn't turn out very well. A lot of folks, now that Florida St and Miami have fallen on hard times, would like to see how Florida would fare on a road trip to Penn St, Texas or LA or even Provo...

[ZOOMBAG]

To a degree.....yes. Seems like when Florida has to make a longer road trip (something longer than a bus ride) their success goes way down, ala Ole Miss last year. Florida's conference sched is mostly near home with the only long trip an single trip to a Western division foe, which they tend to lose with some frequency. They virtually NEVER travel outside Florida, OOC and thus the criticism.

[Don]

To a degree.....yes. Seems like when Florida has to make a longer road trip (something longer than a bus ride) their success goes way down, ala Ole Miss last year. Florida's conference sched is mostly near home with the only long trip an single trip to a Western division foe, which they tend to lose with some frequency. They virtually NEVER travel outside Florida, OOC and thus the criticism.

Ole Miss beat UF in GAINESVILLE.

[Blue Hen]

When the Gators have to leave the relative safety of the Sunshine State to play in bowl games they get whipped most of the time......winning only 4 out of 16 ( .250). But back in the relative home comfort of the State the Gators* are 13-7 in those PSEGs (.650)

[GatorGrad]

Most of Florida's Bowl games, if not in Florida, outright, are in nearby southeastern venues. The big exception was that trip in 1995/6 they made to Tempe and that didn't turn out very well.

They also played in Arizona for the 2006 MNC Game against Ohio State and that game DID turn out very well. So that's 1-1 in MNC games in Arizona, both blowouts. Florida is 3-1 in MNC Games since the 1995 season. Three of those four games were outside of the state of Florida.

[GatorGrad]

To a degree.....yes. Seems like when Florida has to make a longer road trip (something longer than a bus ride) their success goes way down, ala Ole Miss last year. Florida's conference sched is mostly near home with the only long trip an single trip to a Western division foe, which they tend to lose with some frequency. They virtually NEVER travel outside Florida, OOC and thus the criticism.

For one, the Ole Miss game was in Gainesville last year. The Rebels won in The Swamp 31-30. We were a pretty darn good team outside of Gainesville going unbeaten including neutral site wins over pre-season #1 Georgia, then #1 Alabama, and then #1 Oklahoma. I think some of you think that location means a lot more than the actual strength of the opponent. Is winning a game at Washington State tougher than winning at LSU just because WSU is a farther trip?

[GatorGrad]

When the Gators have to leave the relative safety of the Sunshine State to play in bowl games they get whipped most of the time......winning only 4 out of 16 ( .250). But back in the relative home comfort of the State the Gators* are 13-7 in those PSEGs (.650)

Not sure why you feel the need to continue with this, Hen. But carry on if you must...

:rolleyes:

[Blue Hen]

I thought it was relevant to Zoom's point about 'close to home scheduling'. It might be part of the reason why UF* prefers to play almost all of its OOC games in Florida....too much danger in road trips.

[GatorGrad]

Hen,

I was referring to you feeling the need to continue putting an "*" next to the word Gators, Florida, UF, etc every time. Why must you do that? You have already made your feelings known loud and clear about the academic side of college football. Why must you take it a step further with the *'s? Sorry, but I take offense to you constantly singling out my school like that. An * should be used when referring to someone that is breaking the rules (see Bonds, Barry.) Unless you have some proof that UF is breaking NCAA rules, can you if nothing else have respect for me as a poster and refrain from singling out my school like that over and over again? Otherwise, you should at least be consistent and list an * whenever you mention any other school with significantly lower academic standards for football players.

As for the bowl records in and out of state that you listed, you've listed those numbers several times before and I've already gone through those games/matchups in detail showing you why that stat is a bit misleading. You have to consider who Florida was playing / relative matchup advantages in those in-state bowl games vs out of state bowl games to really make sense of things. That said, I won't deny that there is an advantage playing bowl games in the state of Florida. Nor will I deny that Florida tends to have the advantage of playing "close to home" in many of their big games year in and year out. But recently, we have played good teams in big games and have won a healthy share of those games. It's not our fault that our two biggest OOC rivals are in-state or that there are a lot of bowl games in-state.

[Don]

---

Other than the win against Ohio State in Arizona, Florida has not had such a memorable win outside of its home stadium or region. The facts that you present here support claims that Florida refuses to or does not play top notch opponents in a true away/road game. When they start doing that, then we'll discuss this matter further.

Counselor is speculating, not providing facts.

You say that UF doesn't travel AND play top notch opponents outside their "region"? By inference, that would mean that UM does travel AND play top notch opponents outside their "region".

OK, let's look at FACTS. Since 1990, UM has played 16 away OOC games. Those are: ND (8 times), BC (2 times), Syracuse (1X), Colorado (1X), UCLA (1X), Washington (1X), Oregon (1X), and Hawaii (1X). Counselor wants us to believe that UM travels. Let's look again at those games from a mileage point. Using Google Maps for driving (busing teams around) we find: ND (179 miles), Syracuse (453 miles), BC (753 miles), Colorado (1242 miles), UCLA (2240 miles), Washington (2306 miles, Oregon (2455 miles) and Hawaii (5100 miles). So 8 games are 179 miles away and 8 are more than 179 miles. If we expand the definition of region to say 500 miles that drops the # of games to 7. How many of the 7 OOC opponents that are further than 500 miles away have even winning records (Counselor said "quality" opponents and that certainly must be the minimum definition of "quality")? Answer exactly 3 teams.

Summary, over the past 19 seasons, UM has traveled exactly 3 times to play OOC teams that are further than 500 miles away AND that have winning records.

What about IN-conference games using the same criteria of 500+ miles AND winning records? Again, let's look at the facts. Since 1990, UM has played 76 conference away games. How many of those were further than 500 miles? Answer, 8 games. How many of those had winning records? Answer, 3 teams. Summary, over the past 19 years UM has traveled more than 500 miles to play teams with winning records IN THEIR OWN conference exactly 3 times.

Counselor, that means that in the 92 away games that UM played, they traveled more than 500 miles to "quality" teams exactly 6 times!!!

For the record, lets look at UF. Over the past 19 seasons UF has played only 11 away games OOC. Of those 11 teams all 11 had winning records. Those games are: FSU (9 times), Miami (1X), and Syracuse (1X). Let's look again at those games from a mileage point. Using Google Maps for driving (busing teams around) we find:FSU (149 miles), Miami (325 miles) and Syracuse (1140 mles).

Summary, UF has traveled more than 179 miles only 2 times to play winning teams OOC and have traveled more than 500 miles only once to play a team OOC with a winning record over the past 19 years.

So, UM has played 2 MORE OOC opponents over the past 19 seasons OOC where they have had to travel more than 500 miles to play teams with winning records.

But we are NOT done. What about IN-CONFERENCE games? UF has played 78 away games over the past 19 seasons (not counting neutral sites). Of those, how many were more than 500 miles away? Answer, 50 games. How many of those had winning records? Answer, 25 teams.

Summary, UF traveled more than 500 miles to play IN-CONFERENCE foes that had winning records 25 times over the past 19 seasons.

That means that over the past 19 seasons, UM has traveled more than 500 miles to play teams with winning records a total of 6 times while UF has traveled more than 500 miles to play teams with winning records 26 times or 20 MORE than UM.

So Counselor, when discussing teams that travel to play quality opponents UM is pretty FAR DOWN the list. There are plenty of teams that can throw stones at UF travels but UM sure isn't one of them!!!!

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

The Judge hearing your argument would have had his sheriff's officer remove you from the courtroom as you had failed to recognize that my post addressed only Florida's lack of travel to OOC road away games. Hence, I would have objected to the relevance to your argument and the Judge would have sustained my objection. Your continued ranting would have opened the courtroom door to your exit and your deciding and not the Judge deciding which games are quality games would not have been tolerated as only the Judge or Jury is the arbiter of facts.

What must hurt you more is that I actually used the purported facts that you presented in a previous post that listed Florida's many neutral site in-conference games.

Michigan traveled to the State of Florida in 2003 and 2008 and defeated the Gators in what was essentially a home game for Florida in the Citrus Bowl. How do I know? Well, I was present at the 2008 game and saw the 90% Florida majority with my own 3 eyes.

Again, when Florida plays challenging games against quality OOC opponents, start a new thread on the topic.

[Blue Hen]

Oh sorry GG....didn't realize that you meant the asterisk. Not about rules , its about aspiring to the lowest possible standards in the entire low standard SEC. I do have tremendous respect for you. It's nothing personal. If the Delaware Blue Hens had the lowest team ave HS gpa in all of CF and the 3rd lowest qualifying scores I'd be all over that program.

[GatorGrad]

Oh sorry GG....didn't realize that you meant the asterisk. Not about rules , its about aspiring to the lowest possible standards in the entire low standard SEC. I do have tremendous respect for you. It's nothing personal. If the Delaware Blue Hens had the lowest team ave HS gpa in all of CF and the 3rd lowest qualifying scores I'd be all over that program.

1) Asterisks are usually reserved for rule breakers such as Barry Bonds. I do not see how an * fits here.

2) The University of Florida does not "aspire" to have the lowest possible academic standards in the SEC. We aspire to have a good football program while following the rules that are in place.

3) There is no proof that the current UF Football team has the lowest average SAT score in the SEC as they did in the 2002-04 Ron Zook time period that you reference.

4) Even if #1, #2, and #3 above mean nothing to you, if you have tremendous respect for me, then at the very least can you honor my polite request to simply refrain from the *'s and constant jabs at my alma matter on this board?

I realize that we're an easy target due to the recent success of the program, but we are not breaking any rules or doing anything that many other successful programs don't do when it comes to allowing athletes with lower academic profiles to get into school. Thanks for your understanding.

[GatorGrad]

when Florida plays challenging games against quality OOC opponents, start a new thread on the topic.

Hail,

Between the years 1987 and 2000, FSU finished in the top 5 during all 14 seasons. Florida played FSU every single year during that stretch. Would there have been a tougher OOC opponent that Florida could have played in the entire country during that time period? Can you name another school that played a team of that level year in and year out for 14 years in a row? Or does FSU just not count because they are located in our state? When we played Miami in 2002 and 2003, the two years after they won the MNC in 2001, do those games not count because they were played in state? That 2002 Miami team, which lost in the MNC Game to Ohio St in OT, was probably the best team to NOT win a MNC in recent history. The 2003 team wasn't too shabby either. It seems as if these games do not count just because of their location. I don't think that's really fair. If we can find decent OOC competition nearby, and they are rivalry games, doesn't it make sense to play them? Yes, FSU and Miami are down lately. It all goes in cycles. Notre Dame has been down for a long time, but I'm sure you still consider that home and home series a major OOC game, no?

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

Hail,

Between the years 1987 and 2000, FSU finished in the top 5 during all 14 seasons. Florida played FSU every single year during that stretch. Would there have been a tougher OOC opponent that Florida could have played in the entire country during that time period? Can you name another school that played a team of that level year in and year out for 14 years in a row? Or does FSU just not count because they are located in our state? When we played Miami in 2002 and 2003, the two years after they won the MNC in 2001, do those games not count because they were played in state? That 2002 Miami team, which lost in the MNC Game to Ohio St in OT, was probably the best team to NOT win a MNC in recent history. The 2003 team wasn't too shabby either. It seems as if these games do not count just because of their location. I don't think that's really fair. If we can find decent OOC competition nearby, and they are rivalry games, doesn't it make sense to play them? Yes, FSU and Miami are down lately. It all goes in cycles. Notre Dame has been down for a long time, but I'm sure you still consider that home and home series a major OOC game, no?

----

FSu was a very strong opponent but I should have restated my original point which emphasized playing road games out of one's geographic region or conference. When Florida plays at FSU, there are more Gator fans present than are Michigan fans who attend a road game at Oregon, Washington or UCLA. Then, there's the discrepancy at bowl games that is quite noticeable.

I realize that SEC games are tough ones, but then again after all the hype the conference received last year, they did lose a number of bowl games against teams that traveled a much longer distance and could not bring as many fans as a result.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

1) Asterisks are usually reserved for rule breakers such as Barry Bonds. I do not see how an * fits here.

2) The University of Florida does not "aspire" to have the lowest possible academic standards in the SEC. We aspire to have a good football program while following the rules that are in place.

3) There is no proof that the current UF Football team has the lowest average SAT score in the SEC as they did in the 2002-04 Ron Zook time period that you reference.

4) Even if #1, #2, and #3 above mean nothing to you, if you have tremendous respect for me, then at the very least can you honor my polite request to simply refrain from the *'s and constant jabs at my alma matter on this board?

I realize that we're an easy target due to the recent success of the program, but we are not breaking any rules or doing anything that many other successful programs don't do when it comes to allowing athletes with lower academic profiles to get into school. Thanks for your understanding.

----

The NY Yankees play by the rules that are in place and attempts to put the best team on the field possible, but no one cuts them any slack.

[GatorGrad]

----

I realize that SEC games are tough ones, but then again after all the hype the conference received last year, they did lose a number of bowl games against teams that traveled a much longer distance and could not bring as many fans as a result.

If I recall, the SEC went 6-3 in bowl games last year despite not having a relative matchup advantage in any of the games. For example the conference record of the SEC team was always equal to or less than the conference record of their opponent. Pretty good bowl showing IMO.

[GatorGrad]

----

The NY Yankees play by the rules that are in place and attempts to put the best team on the field possible, but no one cuts them any slack.

I am flattered that you would compare the Gators to the NY Yankees. However, I think we have a long way to go to winning 26 championships!

[Don]

If I recall, the SEC went 6-3 in bowl games last year despite not having a relative matchup advantage in any of the games. For example the conference record of the SEC team was always equal to or less than the conference record of their opponent. Pretty good bowl showing IMO.

Give up, we have a 2nd BlueHen. Let them keep living in their own dream worlds. Both keep selecting a 3 game sample instead of 70-100 game sample and wish to make believe that sample is meaningful. IF, HttVV wants to cherry-pick 3 games out of a schedule of 92 games because they involve the only subset he can find where UM has played more of type X opponents than UF, AND thinks that's a meaningful sample, well let him.

He thinks that traveling 5100 miles to play an 0-12 Hawaii is proof that UM is willing to travel while traveling 325 miles to play an 11-2 team in Miami is proof that UF is a coward in scheduling.

He thinks that traveling 179 miles to play an 7-3-1 ND (on average) is proof that UM is willing to travel while traveling 149 miles to play an 9-2-1 FSU (on average) is proof that UF is a coward.

In each case his logic is that the UM games are magically more difficult because because the UM games involve crossing a state line.

Apparently, what UF needs to do is go north on I75 to I-10 but instead of turning west turn east and go to Jacksonville, hop on a plane, fly east ~ 25,000 miles until they arrive at Tallahassee. That way the difficulty of the game would magically be improved by a factor of ~170x because of the increased travel distance and the number of state line crossed. No wait, it must be more difficult than even that because it involves crossing INTERNATIONAL boundaries. :rolleyes:

By their fuzzy logic UF needs to dump FSU completely and improve its SOS by scheduling Duke but only IF UF travels up I-75 to near Dayton, OH picks up I-70 east to Baltimore to I-95 then down to Petersburg, Va, then onto I-85 to Durham, North Carolina. THAT way the game would be absolutely colossally difficult as it not only involves traveling 1600+ miles AND crossing many state lines, BUT most importantly it now passes through BIG TEN COUNTRY, where every OOC opponent automatically qualifies for the moniker "quality opponent". :eek:

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

I can't handle the truth that is not transparent to me. Do forgive and forget.

[Blue Hen]

I asked you once if having the lowest team academic #s in CF bothered you and you replied..." not one single bit " or something like that and that it made you proud...so I'm surprised that some little asterisk would be bothersome.

[GatorGrad]

I asked you once if having the lowest team academic #s in CF bothered you and you replied..." not one single bit " or something like that and that it made you proud...so I'm surprised that some little asterisk would be bothersome.

1) Please stop saying that we have the "lowest team academic #'s in CF" unless you can prove that we currently have the lowest team academic #'s in CF.

2) When I said I was "proud" of our football program, I wasn't talking specifically about the lower academic standards. Just like we don't "aspire" to have the lowest academic requirements. Go back and read the thread and the context. Even HYH understood what I said and corrected you.

3) Yes, I said that lowering academic requirements for athletes doesn't bother me because we're playing within the rules and most of the teams that we compete with are in the same boat. It's not like we are accepting kids with lower SAT scores but USC, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, etc are not. If we don't recruit them, then Georgia and FSU will get them and beat us with them. Are we supposed to sit back and let that happen just so that after getting beat by 35 points to a rival we are able to claim "oh yea well our team has a higher SAT average?" So no, it doesn't bother me that we allow less qualified kids who bring something to the table (playing football) into school. It is within the rules, and having a good football team brings a lot to the university. That doesn't mean that it can't bother me when you constantly jab my alma matter on this board, especially with an * which implies that we are in some way cheating.

[Blue Hen]

Why do you keep bringing up the implication of cheating ? That asterisk has nothing to do with cheating as I've explained 17 times. That asterisk refers to to AJC report of admissions data that the NCAA collects from its members every 6 years. For UF football.....lowest team ave SAT scores in the SEC ( by a substantial margin) and 3rd lowest among BCS league teams. Also for the Gators - lowest team ave HS gpa in the entire BCS. Also, largest SAT gap between real students and football dummies in the SEC occurs at UF ( by a mile !) and the largest gap in the BCS leagues. GG, no way around it- UF football / academics epitomizes the 'dumbth' factor in college football..but "we be number one".
Now, GG, I'm very curious of what ,specifically, makes you believe that Urban Meyer prefers to recruit brighter and more academically legitimate kids than Spurrier and Zook.....as you're always telling us that the Gators were real dumb then but are smart now. Keep in mind that UM continually vows to suit up the fastest team in college football and over time I believe that you will come to understand that this 'fastest team' goal of UM's will come at embarassing academic costs. Don't be shocked if the next UF admissions data published is even lower than the pitiful last two sets of #s.

[Don]

Ignore him! You're never going to get him to change. You've tried too many times and failed to alter his behavior. No matter the topic he will manage to throw in that AJC article. Why continue to discuss anything with him?

[GatorGrad]

Why do you keep bringing up the implication of cheating ? That asterisk has nothing to do with cheating as I've explained 17 times. .

Because an asterisk in sports should be reserved for cheaters. People bring asterisk signs to the ballpark when Barry Bonds (a cheater) is up to bat. I do not believe that it is appropriate in this case. That is why I have kindly asked you to stop.


That asterisk refers to to AJC report of admissions data that the NCAA collects from its members every 6 years. .

I understand that. And my point is that an asterisk is not an appropriate way to reference that report. You have referenced it enough already on this board, don't you think? Is an asterisk every time you mention my alma matter on this board really necessary? You have made your points loud and clear already. I have explained why I object to the use of an asterisk when referring to my school on this board, and politely asked you to stop. Hopefully, you can respect that.


GG, no way around it- UF football / academics epitomizes the 'dumbth' factor in college football..but "we be number one".

I'm not trying to go around it. Again, we are playing by the rules that are in place. We're in the same boat as most other schools that compete at a high level. Georgia, Oklahoma, USC, etc...all make huge concessions for college football players, no? Singling us out just because we were last in the SEC during 2002-04 isn't really fair. Besides the fact that it was 4-5 years ago under a different coach, that's like treating a team that finished 1-7 in conference play differently than a team that finished 2-6. Guess what...they both stunk. Is the 2-6 team in a different boat and classification?


Now, GG, I'm very curious of what ,specifically, makes you believe that Urban Meyer prefers to recruit brighter and more academically legitimate kids than Spurrier and Zook.....

I've already explained why I believe that this may be true. Please reference the prior thread on this subject.


as you're always telling us that the Gators were real dumb then but are smart now. ..

I never said that we are "smart" now. Just that I have reason to believe that our average SAT scores, GPA's, etc for incoming recruits might be higher now than they were in 2002-04 and not last in the conference.

[Blue Hen]

You sure have a narrow view of asterisk uses in sports. I've seen them used to indicate post or regular season stats, conference changes, team changes, periods with different rules, etc etc. There's a plethora of asterisk applications for sports.
Well I missed your theory about UM having higher academic recruiting standards than Zook and Spurrier, and I'm lazy and not inspired to go looking for it. Any chance for a short version ? We'll just have to wait and see. Did you read Meyer's biography 'Urban's Way' ? He shares all his coaching and many life philosophies and there is no mention that he thinks recruited players should be academically capable...but he thinks they should be fast.
And regarding this cheating thing , do you know that a team can, theoretically, suit up kids that made 600 on the SAT ( about what your average 5th grader would score ) and it wouldn't be cheating. It's part of the NCAA's sliding scale. So UF isn't cheating but its obsession with cerebrally and academically challenged FB athletes is a 'choice'....a very low, low, moral ground choice. And what UF recruits and suits up leads to the fraudulent practices of keeping all those dummies eligible and on the field and even issuing them degrees although they won't be remotely college educated. The NCAA new APR requirements have fostered this kind of fraud throughout big time CF. The NCAA does not care about academic integrity.
Anyway GG, you know that I'm a long time skeptic about dumbth and fraud in CF and I've used samples of various WAAC programs including VT...my favorite FBS program. . So I should refrain from using the Florida Gators as the perfect 'dumbth factor' sample just because it's the alma mater of one of the best posters in this forum ? Are you respecting my convictions with that request ? Would HYH ask that nobody criticize the Vick creeps out of personal respect to him ? Heck, Mr. NCT has openely acknowledged some of UGA's sleazy past academic practices and certainly hasn't requested that it not be mentioned or discussed out of personal respect for himself. You shouldn't take this UF FB dumbth stuff personally....imo.
BTW, those 700 & 800 SAT types that UF brought in in 2004 were juniors and seniors for Urban Meyer's strong teams.

[GatorGrad]

You sure have a narrow view of asterisk uses in sports. I've seen them used to indicate post or regular season stats, conference changes, team changes, periods with different rules, etc etc. There's a plethora of asterisk applications for sports.

In the context in which you have used the asterisk whenever mentioning my school, I do not believe that it is fair. It seems to imply that we are either cheating or doing something wrong that nobody else is doing. If you are going to list an asterisk every time you mention my school, you should also be doing it every time you mention other schools that have much lower academic requirements for CF players.


Well I missed your theory about UM having higher academic recruiting standards than Zook and Spurrier, and I'm lazy and not inspired to go looking for it. Any chance for a short version ?

Urban Meyer has recruited less players that have a chance of not qualifying academically over the years. Since Meyer has become the coach, we have had nearly 100% of our recruits ultimately qualify. Under Spurrier and then Zook, we would usually have several players a year that we recruited, signed to a letter of intent, and then didn't make it into school and had to go to JUCO or make other plans after not meeting NCAA requirements. I don't think it's crazy then to suggest that in the past, some of these borderline kids that DID make it in (just barely) were lowering the average academic profile of the recruiting classes. By not recruiting or signing as many borderline kids, you don't have as many borderline kids getting in since they weren't recruited as heavily in the first place. Finally, our graduation rates are up big time under Meyer. Every single senior from the 2008 team graduated or is on schedule to graduate. I believe it was the same case for the 2007 team. That was not the case in the past. I know you think this always means more academic fraud going on within the university, but I think it's partly due to what I mentioned above (recruiting less borderline kids,) and also Meyer's discipline and emphasis on academics that he has put on the kids once they get to campus.


We'll just have to wait and see. Did you read Meyer's biography 'Urban's Way' ? He shares all his coaching and many life philosophies and there is no mention that he thinks recruited players should be academically capable...but he thinks they should be fast.

Yes, I have read the book. I'm glad he thinks they should be fast. As long as they qualify, I do too.


And regarding this cheating thing , do you know that a team can, theoretically, suit up kids that made 600 on the SAT ( about what your average 5th grader would score ) and it wouldn't be cheating. It's part of the NCAA's sliding scale. So UF isn't cheating but its obsession with cerebrally and academically challenged FB athletes is a 'choice'....a very low, low, moral ground choice.

It's not a low moral ground choice. The schools that we compete with are in the same boat. And we are breaking no rules. Your beef should be with the NCAA.


The NCAA new APR requirements have fostered this kind of fraud throughout big time CF. The NCAA does not care about academic integrity.

There you go. So why single out schools that are just playing by the rules that the NCAA has set (or not set?) Again I ask...what do you expect us to do? Not recruit certain players and let them go to FSU or Georgia so that when they beat us 35-3 I can at least claim "oh yea well our team's SAT scores are higher than yours?" Please answer this question, specifically.


So I should refrain from using the Florida Gators as the perfect 'dumbth factor' sample just because it's the alma mater of one of the best posters in this forum ? Are you respecting my convictions with that request ? Would HYH ask that nobody criticize the Vick creeps out of personal respect to him ? Heck, Mr. NCT has openely acknowledged some of UGA's sleazy past academic practices and certainly hasn't requested that it not be mentioned or discussed out of personal respect for himself. You shouldn't take this UF FB dumbth stuff personally....imo. .

All I am asking is for you to be fair and I don't believe that listing an asterisk every time you mention Florida on this board is being fair. Besides the fact that I don't even think it's an accurate way to make your point, you are singling us out when there are many other schools in the same boat. If you must list an asterisk for Florida, then you should also do the same for every other school that has significantly lower academic requirements for football players. You can discuss "dumbth" among college football players all you want. I just don't think that my school should be singled out like that.

[Blue Hen]

GG,
Thanks for the good post and responses.

First off , please list all the BCS college football programs that have the absolute lowest team average HS GPAs. List all the CF programs that have the lowest academic admissions numbers in the SEC - the academic caboose of CF, and list all the CF programs that suit up a team averaging an 890 SAT score or below. Your perception that everybody is in the same boat as UF football doesn't make sense to me. How can everybody be dead last ? There's the top of the barrell the middle of the barrel , the bottom of the barrel and everything in between. According top the last two admissions reports sent to the NCAA from UF, Gator FB is right at the bottom of the barrel......and there are very few others, if any, down there with it.
You're certainly right about my view of 'grad rates' at the win-at-all-costs factories. They are a fraudulent joke. When somebody mentions
grad rates I quit reading the posts. Like I said if an earthworm could run 40 yards real fast , bench press a bunch of pounds and help a team win places like UF would keep it eligible and on the field and issue it some kind of degree.
Thanks for the Spurrier/Zook/Meyer theory. There's one key thing that I believe you're missing. Those recruited non-qualifiers of Zook & Spurrier (if correct) don't count in the NCAA required admissions data. Only the current 85 players on scholarship count. You believe that Meyer's numbers will be better because he doesn't chase around non qualifiers, but he is obsessed with high speed 'bare minimum' qualifiers which will offer the same deplorable team ave numbers.....which we will see in a few years. Again a 600 SAT score will qualify a kid, and you get 400 points for signing the test.
Anyway, GG, any asterisk I might or might not use does not signify cheating or anything illegal but bottom of the barrel 'choices'. THe NCAA, basically, mandates zero academic standards. The members are free to make any admissions standards choices they want. If Notre Dame made choices like UF, Urban would be working at his long time oft stated 'dream job'.

[GatorGrad]

You are again assuming that UF is still "dead last" in any of those categories. Please stop treating this as fact. You are basing this assumption off of the 2002-04 era under Ron Zook. I believe that the next report will not show UF dead last in the same category for the reasons I listed in my prior post, and in the prior thread on this subject several weeks ago. I am not missing anything in regards to the non-qualifiers. You may disagree and that's fine, but you can't prove that we are dead last right now until the next report comes out so whenever you use that as the basis for your argument, that is not fair. As far as you know, we're currently 6th in the SEC or 8th or 10th in SAT scores or GPA or whatever. In the "same boat" as rivals such as Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, etc. Do you really think that our players are significantly "dumber" overall than the players at those schools or FSU for example? Just because during 2002-04 we happened to be last in a category? Do you think that there are a bunch of kids that FSU or Tennessee would turn down for academic reasons but Florida would accept with open arms? I'm not saying that we suit up brain surgeons or rocket scientists. Just that we do nothing different than what most of our rivals do, within the rules, in order to have a good football team. For the 3rd time I will ask:

What are we to do - increase our academic standards just so that we lose kids to our rivals and then when Georgia or FSU beat us 35-3 we can claim that "oh well...our players have higher SAT scores than yours?"

[NCT]

I think, GG, that's exactly what BH would have UF do. And if they did, he would focus on Georgia and FSU for not doing the same thing. Although frankly, FSU has done plenty lately to have the hot eye of Blue Hen on them for academic reasons.

Personally, I think BH should ease up, because he's made his point and he's not going to get you to admit to any discomfort with the system. But GG, I'll say this: it would piss me off in a major way if UGA was at the bottom of those numbers at any time, and the University would hear about it. Even though our basketball program was in the dumps, I was pleased that our (former) coach stood behind kicking our leading scorers from the previous season off the team for skipping class.

[GatorGrad]

I guess my main beef is that BH is singling us out as if there is some huge gap between Florida and everyone else. Like we're in some other stratosphere compared to our competition just because in the specific time period selected, we happened to be last in the SEC. As if we are allowing dummies to come to UF but Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, and FSU are bringing in chemical engineers. That's what I mean when I say "same boat." We're in the same grouping and we all make concessions for football players. Singling Florida out here is like singling out the 12th place SEC team that went 0-8 five years ago from the 11th place SEC team that went 1-7 five years ago and assuming that the 0-8 last place team always finishes in last place and that their program overall is on a different level of "bad" than the 1-7 team from five years ago. I wasn't even going to argue about this anymore as I thought that we had each made our points, but then the childish asterisks kept coming and I couldn't resist.

[GatorGrad]

FYI...

Team Grade Point Average Under Urban Meyer:

Spring 2005 - 2.58
Fall 2005 - 2.65
Spring 2006 - 2.70
Fall 2006 - 2.72
Spring 2007 - 2.77
Fall 2007 - 2.81
Spring 2008 - 2.86

* Prior to Coach Meyer's arrival, the team GPA was 2.38

* Florida owns the highest graduation percentage of BCS National Championship Teams since 1997.

But I am sure that all of this just means that Urban brought in some shady "counselors," academic fraud on campus has drastically increased, and that there is no way that things could have actually improved since he got here in 2005. Ron Zook was not only an average at best football coach, he was not a good program leader overall and recruited bozos like DT Marcus Thomas (who Meyer kicked off the team late in the 2006 season before the team went on to win the 2006 SEC & BCS Titles.)

[Blue Hen]

Good mention of Tennessee and FSU. Those WAAC FB programs are consistently near the bottom of the academic standard barrel....and you should throw LSU in the mix. Dumbth has been the key ingredient to their success over the years, also.
UF 'STILL" being dead last is not an unreasonable assumption, GG. You read the AJC article which stated that the admissions numbers for these programs tend to be consistent from reporting period to reporting period , therefore, your beef is with that newspaper, not me. I think they know more than you and have done more research and collected more data regarding this matter. FB admissions standards are not established by individual head coaches, although you'd like to wish that. Again, this consistent pattern PLUS the openly stated goal of UM....to suit up the 'fastest team in America' is not conducive to improved academic admissions numbers..unless, of course, you believe that the 'fastest team in America' can be built with kids that can read, write and talk on the college level. That's very unlikely in today's CF recruiting climate, isn't it ?
What should UF do, IMO ?......Increase standards for sure as NCT predicted I'd say. Take some pride in the cerebral and academic quality of student-athletes representing such a fine public university. For example take a CB prospect that might run a 4.5 40 but can major in real post secondary majors and read, write and speak like a college student over a 4.25 kid that belongs in a 6th grade remedial program. GG, the University of Florida is the second highest rated institution in the SEC with relatively stringent admissions standards for a public institution. No reason to suit up the dumbest football team around.

[Blue Hen]

UF makes more concessions for FB dummies than anybody else in BCS CF...within that 'win-at-all-costs' grouping you mention. Nobody else shows a 346 SAT gap between students and FB jocks. The second highest standard University in the Southeastern Conference shouldn't have to do that. C'mon GG, have some Gator Pride beyond just winning championships and FB games.

[Blue Hen]

Perhaps more tutors have been hired, more 'incompletes' have been issued instead of 'Fs', more FB jocks have been herded in 'Leisure Service Recreation' type majors, more self study on-line courses have been taken ( mostly by the tutors on behalf of the jocks ).....GPAs and grad rates are easily and fraudulently manipulated at UF and throughout most of big time CF just to stay ahead of the NCAA's ridiculous APR requirements. No doubt that Urban insists that his recruits go to class and stay eligible.

[GatorGrad]

UF 'STILL" being dead last is not an unreasonable assumption, GG.

You still can't prove it so you really should stop stating it as fact. Bottom line, it is still an assumption on your end. While it may be "reasonable" under most circumstances, I believe that there is also reasonable proof that the opposite may be true in this case under Urban Meyer, and that we are no longer dead last in the SEC. Going after less borderline kids, having less academic casualties, and the fact that our average team GPA has increased every single semester since Meyer arrived supports this theory IMO.


What should UF do, IMO ?......Increase standards for sure as NCT predicted I'd say.

And lose to our rivals? No thank you. Why? Would the school benefit more from losing more football games overall? What about the money that is donated to the program by alumni who enjoy having a winning football team, some of which is donated to academic endeavors? There is no incentive to significantly raise our standards in exchange for winning football games. Our school has a pretty decent academic reputation and a pretty decent football program - the best of both worlds. A nice balance. We play within the rules and field a good football team. I don't want FSU, Georgia, Tennessee, Miami, etc having control of the best talent in the southeast and my school getting the leftover "smarter" kids just so that our average SAT scores can be higher than theirs when they whip our tails on the field. Silliness.


No reason to suit up the dumbest football team around.

You cannot prove that we are currently the "dumbest football team around" so please stop saying that.


Nobody else shows a 346 SAT gap between students and FB jocks.

So what do you think about UCLA? Don't they have the highest SAT gap between regular students and athletes in the country? Do they "academic fraud" their way into all of those NCAA Titles?


C'mon GG, have some Gator Pride beyond just winning championships and FB games.

I have plenty of pride in my school beyond winning championships and football games, thank you. Do you take pride in constantly ripping my school and listing childish asterisks every time you mention it?

[GatorGrad]

Perhaps more tutors have been hired, more 'incompletes' have been issued instead of 'Fs', more FB jocks have been herded in 'Leisure Service Recreation' type majors, more self study on-line courses have been taken ( mostly by the tutors on behalf of the jocks ).....GPAs and grad rates are easily and fraudulently manipulated at UF and throughout most of big time CF just to stay ahead of the NCAA's ridiculous APR requirements. No doubt that Urban insists that his recruits go to class and stay eligible.

"Perhaps" being the key word to this entire post. You don't know that all of that is occuring on our campus. This is pure speculation on your end. Just like the assumption that UF is still dead last in the SEC in average SAT scores. You really need to stop basing your arguments on your own speculation and opinions. And when you assume that tutors are taking exams on behalf of jocks, do you have any basis for that? Because you are pretty much accusing us of what FSU just got slammed for and calling us cheaters. I think you should do some research on our Athletic Director, Jeremy Foley. He's a class act all the way and takes NCAA Compliance very very seriously. He took over as AD in 1992, and we haven't had any NCAA issues under his watch.

[Hail to the Victors Valiant]

While Florida is not trying to be Vanderbilt or Stanford, there should be greater rewards provided to teams such as the Commodores and Cardinal so that even Emmitt Smith and Percy Harvin would have considered matriculating at these 2 schools or others like them.

[Blue Hen]

Actually, I'm accusing many of the big time factories of artificially sliding gifted but dumb athletes through and issuing degrees without really providing a 'college' education. Sure , it's my opinion. it's the Drake Group's opinion, It's Murray Sperber's opinion, it's the opinion of many many educators including those actually employed at the schools doing this stuff. It's common knowledge, GG, common knowledge, and I sincerely think in your heart and mind you know it also.
GG, this academic standard discussion thread is getting long and clutzy. How about we start a fresh thread ?

[Blue Hen]

.. Yeah, yeah, and you can't prove that UF football would fall into mediocrity if it suited players that weren't the dumbest in the SEC. Please stop throwing those assumptions around. :-)

Sticking to CF, UCLA suits up players that collectively have a 3,400 SAT point advantage over UF's and UCLA's HS gpa average is 2nd highest in the P10 among publics. UF's, of course, has the lowest gpa average in the entire BCS...no comparrison, whatsoever in the cerebral and academic quality of FB Bruins and FB gators...............besides, Rick Neuheisel has ridden into LA and personally changed the admissions office policies and ideologies at UCLA (to a higher standard) in regards to FB athletes. (learned that from you).


GG, lets continue the academic integrity discussion in a fresh thread.

[GatorGrad]

Actually, I'm accusing many of the big time factories of artificially sliding gifted but dumb athletes through and issuing degrees without really providing a 'college' education. Sure , it's my opinion.

No, none of that is being debated here. Now you are backing up to a general statement that I was never objecting to. Let me be very clear. I'm not arguing against the idea that big time college football programs allow athletes with lesser academic profiles to attend school. That is well documented. I'm not even arguing against the idea that once the kids get into these schools that they don't have access to tutors or easier majors to keep them eligible and ultimately get them a degree. Finally, I am not arguing against your opinions themselves - you are entitled to them.

My objections have been to (1) you singling out UF from other schools in the same boat as if there is some big difference between the type of athletes recruited at UF vs schools like FSU, LSU, Tennessee, etc and (2) to you passing off your opinions as facts.

You cannot prove that UF would still be dead last in the SEC, so it is not fair to state that as fact. I think I've provided some decent info that would support the idea that the program has improved their academic profile under their new coach and that we would not be "dead last" right now. You can disagree and that's fine, but it's still your opinion. Finally, I object to you passing off your opinion as fact that the only reason that our average team GPA has gone up every single semester since Meyer arrived was because...

more tutors have been hired, more 'incompletes' have been issued instead of 'Fs', more FB jocks have been herded in 'Leisure Service Recreation' type majors, more self study on-line courses have been taken ( mostly by the tutors on behalf of the jocks ).....GPAs and grad rates are easily and fraudulently manipulated at UF

A lot of assumptions made there, no? Guess what - not every school has tutors actually taking exams for students like FSU did. We really have nothing more to discuss here and once again should agree to disagree. I will never object to or argue with facts, stats, etc. Same deal in the conference (SEC) discussions. But just like I will defend the SEC when it is called out on this board, I'm certainly going to defend my own school, especially when it is attacked in the way that you have chosen to.

[Blue Hen]

I single out UF only because it has parlayed these low low academic standards, that we both agree upon, into the ultimate FB glory.....UF Gator FB is , unfortunately for you, the perfect example right now of how the dumbth factor and zero standard factor brings rewards in this fraudulent system. Maybe that 'perfect example' will shift to another school soon. Believe it or not, I would be very happy for you, the Gator Nation, and CF in general if UF didn't have the lowest FB admissions #s around. It would great to cite the Gator FB accomplishments and note that they did it with reasonably intelligent and academically capable kids and decent admissions standards. I'd be bragging so much on UF football that you'd get sick of it GG....but, unfortunately, it is what it is.

[GatorGrad]

Yeah, yeah, and you can't prove that UF football would fall into mediocrity if it suited players that weren't the dumbest in the SEC.

Why do you keep saying that we have the dumbest players in the SEC?


Sticking to CF, UCLA suits up players that collectively have a 3,400 SAT point advantage over UF's and UCLA's HS gpa average is 2nd highest in the P10 among publics.

Why are we "sticking to CF?" Because the stat I mentioned doesn't fall in line with the picture you are trying to paint? In response to you ripping the gap in SAT scores between regular students and FB players at UF, I pointed out that UCLA has the largest gap between regular students and all athletes. The overall athletic program! The most successful athletic program with the most NCAA Titles. You seem to think that gap in SAT scores between regular students and athletes at any given school is a valid stat in this debate (and I agree.) So again I ask...did they "academically fraud" their way into those titles?


UF's, of course, has the lowest gpa average in the entire BCS...

Why do you keep saying that we have the lowest GPA average in the entire BCS?


GG, lets continue the academic integrity discussion in a fresh thread.

No thanks...I do not wish to start a new thread on this topic. You can if you want. I'll just keep defending my school and objecting to you passing off opinions as facts.

[GatorGrad]

I single out UF only because it has parlayed these low low academic standards, that we both agree upon, into the ultimate FB glory.....UF Gator FB is , unfortunately for you, the perfect example right now of how the dumbth factor and zero standard factor brings rewards in this fraudulent system.

So just because we won the BCS Championship, we are singled out from other schools in the same academic boat that did not win the BCS Championship? And for that reason, you have decided to list asterisks every time you mention Florida? I thought that the BCS Title meant nothing to you...why are you calling it "ultimate FB glory?" Since it means nothing to you, then we should not be singled out any more than any other conference champ with significantly lower academic requirements for CF players. Or are you saying that "ultimate FB glory" = winning the SEC Championship?


I would be very happy for you, the Gator Nation, and CF in general if UF didn't have the lowest FB admissions #s around.

Can you prove that UF currently "has the lowest FB admissions #'s around?"

[Blue Hen]

Ok....the lowest admissions tests scoring players in the SEC. The SAT and ACT tests are not intelligence tests. I'll try to use that instead of 'dumbest'.


UCLA's jock 'gap' does, indeed, bother me. But their scholarship fb players are not even remotely the lowest qualified and this ia a CF forum. If UCLA parlayed really cerebrally/academically challenged players into FB MNC's I'd be all over those bruins.


The UF 2.54 hs gpa average is the lowest among all those public BCS teams in the ACJ report. I've checked it 5 times. Rutgers is second lowest.

[GatorGrad]

Unanswered questions:

1) Does UCLA "academically fraud" their way into all of their PAC 10 & NCAA Championships?

2) What "ultimate FB glory" did UF achieve that makes them the "perfect example" for your witch hunt?

3) Can you prove that UF Football players currently have the lowest average HS GPA in the country?

4) Can you prove that UF Football players currently have the lowest SAT scores in the SEC?

[Blue Hen]

Both the real and mythical championships are football glory.
When a program with UF's bottom level admissions numbers achieve this kind of glory , I move in.......sorry.

Prove that UF's FB admissions numbers, which have been consistently low over the past two reports have changed. When I see it I'll believe it. Until then the factual record stands.

[GatorGrad]

Prove that UF's FB admissions numbers, which have been consistently low over the past two reports have changed. When I see it I'll believe it. Until then the factual record stands.

I do not need to prove my opinion because I am not stating my opinion as fact like you are. I am only giving evidence as to why I believe there is reason to think that the current team is not "dead last" in either category anymore. I am pointing out why your opinion cannot be assumed to be fact. We have a new coach who has recruited less borderline kids, and a team GPA that has increased every single semester since 2005. I believe that our average SAT scores / HS GPA would no longer be last in any category, but unlike you I am not stating it as fact because I do not know for certain. However you constantly pass off your opinion that we are still dead last, as we were in 2002-04 under Ron Zook, as fact. That is what I object to and why I have asked you to stop making such statements.

[GatorGrad]

I must have missed this little jab earlier:

Rick Neuheisel has ridden into LA and personally changed the admissions office policies and ideologies at UCLA (to a higher standard) in regards to FB athletes. (learned that from you).

When did I say that Rick personally changed the admissions office policies and idealogies (to a higher standard) in regards to FB athletes? I did not say that. If you are assuming (once again) that I think that, just because of my points on Meyer, you are wrong. If UCLA started having less academic casualties, and increased their average team GPA every single semester for seven semesters in a row, then I would. But the comparison is not possible since he's only been there for a year.

Speaking of UCLA, you still haven't answered my question:

Did UCLA "academically fraud" their way into all of their PAC 10 & NCAA Championships?