Enjoying your Global Warming?

[ZOOMBAG]

Just hope everyone this evening and tomorrow in the Ohio River valley up though the Northeast is enjoying their Global Warming this early spring weekend!!!

[Lincoln Tower]

"Global Warming" would affect temperatures over a long range of time. A snow storm or a warm streak over a week wouldn't affect it.

Besides, 2 days ago it was 60+ in Cleveland. That is much more abnormal in early March than a blizzard. Snow doesn't stop until mid-April or so.

[ZOOMBAG]

This has been the coldest winter in the US since 1978-79 and the seventh coldest of all time. Last year was also in the top 20 coldest all time.

Solar activity is at it's lowest in 30 years the past two years, and the result? Cold winters...

Hmm...

Amazing....the sun controls the weather. Imagine that.

[Lincoln Tower]

That data is much more pertinant to Global Warming that your original post. I dont have a strong opinion on many "hot button" topics, but I can usually sniff out a BSer.

[EvilVodka]

That data is much more pertinant to Global Warming that your original post. I dont have a strong opinion on many "hot button" topics, but I can usually sniff out a BSer.

Zoombag is really not grasping the time scale of climate change

[FLORIDA HERD FAN]

How about this, EvilVodka: in the past 150 years the average mean temperature of the earth has increased by 0.7 degrees celsius. BFD.

At any point in geologic time the earth will either be warming or cooling. Either way, left-leaning scientists together with liberal politicians and activists will express alarm and blame it on human activity.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071219/COMMENTARY/10575140

[treyinathens]

Zoombag is really not grasping the time scale of climate change

Oh, but a few years of above average temperatures during a period of high sun activity, and its time to see if the bomb shelter in the backyard is still in working order.

[Bucs90]

I did enjoy it Zoom, thanks for asking. I spent last weekend on the South Carolina coast. It is usually in the 60's or 70's this time of year between Charleston and Myrtle Beach. But this time it was in the 40's and 50's, colder at night. So, I had to stay in the hotel most of the time, and watch news reports on China's coldest winter in decades. Oh, oops, my mistake, the news didn't report on China or other nations enjoying their coldest days in many years. I saw on Fox News the snowfall pictures in Arkansas and Mississippi. Yeah, imagine that, snow in Mississippi in March! But, yes, in my hotel room I was forced to get newspapers and read the NY Times coverage of the climate change conference that occurred across the street from their offices in NY. The conference provided many respected scientists questioning man's causing global warming and hosted hundreds of other global warming skeptics. Oh, wait, another mistake, no one covered that. I guess the NY Times was too busy to send a reporter all the way across the street to cover it.

But, yes, I did enjoy my globally warmed weekend. I just wish the warming would hurry up and reverse this cycle of cooling the planet is about to enter. I enjoy my beach weekends so I don't want many more days inside the hotel!

[EvilVodka]

Oh, but a few years of above average temperatures during a period of high sun activity, and its time to see if the bomb shelter in the backyard is still in working order.

I never said anything about a few years, climate change will never be determined by a few years

you people are still not getting the time scale of climate change

until you start reading deeper into the actual problems, you're nothing but misinformed pawns of political agendas

[EvilVodka]

How about this, EvilVodka: in the past 150 years the average mean temperature of the earth has increased by 0.7 degrees celsius. BFD.

At any point in geologic time the earth will either be warming or cooling. Either way, left-leaning scientists together with liberal politicians and activists will express alarm and blame it on human activity.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071219/COMMENTARY/10575140

Let's dig a little deeper, shall we?

Who exactly is the National Center for Policy Analysis?
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Center_for_Policy_Analysi s

Here's their actual website: http://www.ncpa.org/

From what I gather, this organization is comprised of many different CEOs of corporations that want less government regulation (obviously!) and have created this organization as a think tank to proliferate tons of news stories that in the end result in nothing more than their own opinions on how policies should be run

They've got tons of news stories, I encourage everyone here to read them, they're quite hilarious!

Here's one about saving tigers:
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/enviro/feb98h.html

Experts argue that local inhabitants must derive direct economic benefits from tigers living in the wild if the animals are to be saved. Here are some of their suggestions as to how this might be done:

* After Nepal's government gave a local group land management rights within a certain area, the group promoted tourism by building nature trails for safaris and a tiger-viewing platform -- with the income from tourists going to three schools and a health clinic.

* State-protected areas could be turned over to private ownership and management -- an approach that has worked well in Africa.

* Limited trophy hunting could be allowed with the proceeds going to protection and conservation efforts.

* Since tigers in captivity breed readily, their valuable parts could be used to satisfy Asian medicinal markets -- undercutting demand for wild tiger carcasses.

Hmmm...tiger viewing areas, limited trophy hunting, and using spare parts of tigers in captivity are going to save tigers...lol

I like the last idea especially, that would pretty much create a farm market for tiger parts...if we could somehow domesticate tigers, it might make the butchery part alot easier

Hmmm...what else can we think to privatize??

[EvilVodka]

Here's some more National Center for Policy Analysis stuff

Here's a link for high school students to learn more about health care (all according to NCPA of course):
http://www.debate-central.org/links/?c=Health-Infrastructure

Each story seems to have a central idea as well...how govt. regulated institutions are inferior to private sector efforts (which is true to some extent, but this clearly shows the bias of this organization)

Here's some stuff on David Deming as well:
http://www.campusreportonline.net/main/articles.php?id=257

Greenpeace's view on David Demming:
http://members.greenpeace.org/blog/exxonsecrets/2007/12/19/david_deming_exxonsecrets_denier_of_the

[FLORIDA HERD FAN]

In typical liberal fashion, EvilVodka, when you can't attack the message you attack the messenger.

[Bucs90]

Herd Fan, thats a good point, not necessarily about Evil, but about some on that side of the GW debate in general. The GW skeptics offer many good points, but usually are not debated, but rather dismissed as "non-believers".

[Bucs90]

Fair arguments. I'm not a professional scientist, so I won't pretend to be. BUT, I see countless arguments providing "proof", examples, data, studies and research that debunk global warming and show it is not caused by humans or industry. I would be open to believe global warming "alarmists" if they would take these counter studies and arguments and take them apart, in a fair debate, with arguments that are real, not just dismissing them as idiots. I read the book "The Coming Global Superstorm" in 2000, before I really got into politics. Saw the movie "Day After Tomorrow", also before I got into politics. I was worried about global warming when it first came to the spotlight. I'd still like the know the real truth. The problem is the counter argument is very convincing as well. BOTH sides are making great points and great arguments for their view. However, only one side, the skeptical side, is willing to stand in a fair and calm debate. If that occurred, and it was found that global warming is caused by man and is an imminent threat, I'd be first in line to ride a bicycle to work. But until then, I'll keep living my life. What is it the global warming alarmists are so afraid of debating?

[Bucs90]

Just for example, yet another article you won't see on CNN, MSNBC or the New York Times:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8641

The most disturbing part of this link is that the small % of the UN report's text that was actually written by scientists was "edited" to....hold your breathe...."ensure compliance." Think about that. The scientists findings were edited, by member nation politicians, to ENSURE COMPLIANCE. It's not about their wanting to save Earth. It is about control. It is about mandates for world nations that will allow total control. That is all it is about. The Earth is not in danger. We are not going to melt. But if they are able to "ensure compliance", we may be saluting a U.N. flag instead of a U.S. flag.

[EvilVodka]

In typical liberal fashion, EvilVodka, when you can't attack the message you attack the messenger.

Just nonsense

I'm open to any ideas on the table

Its pretty naive not to look at who's sending the message though, in this case an associate professor who is a member of the National Center of Policy Analysis, an organization created mainly by CEOs who target anything remotely associated with government regulation or services, which of course makes sense, because the bottomline is that they're looking out for numero uno, their own business agenda

If his association with this organization doesn't bring up red flags with you, then you're extremely naive

I'm open to scientific explanations, not political ones...deming has an interesting viewpoint, but I'd like to see a more substantive argument besides "it was cold this year", and his association with NCPA makes everything he says dubious

**(just for the record as well, I voted for Bush over Al Gore in 2000, exactly how does that make me a liberal?)

[EvilVodka]

It is deeply troubling to me that Americans are willing to risk lives (in wars and otherwise) and nature around them to protect a "way of life" that consists of wanton consumerism and purposeless wealth accumulation instead of a way of life that actually stands for justice, equality, and freedom and seeks to promote this latter way of life for everyone and not just themselves.

well said

one of the best posts I've ever seen on this board honestly

[EvilVodka]

Fair arguments. I'm not a professional scientist, so I won't pretend to be. BUT, I see countless arguments providing "proof", examples, data, studies and research that debunk global warming and show it is not caused by humans or industry. I would be open to believe global warming "alarmists" if they would take these counter studies and arguments and take them apart, in a fair debate, with arguments that are real, not just dismissing them as idiots. I read the book "The Coming Global Superstorm" in 2000, before I really got into politics. Saw the movie "Day After Tomorrow", also before I got into politics. I was worried about global warming when it first came to the spotlight. I'd still like the know the real truth. The problem is the counter argument is very convincing as well. BOTH sides are making great points and great arguments for their view. However, only one side, the skeptical side, is willing to stand in a fair and calm debate. If that occurred, and it was found that global warming is caused by man and is an imminent threat, I'd be first in line to ride a bicycle to work. But until then, I'll keep living my life. What is it the global warming alarmists are so afraid of debating?

Look at it this way...NO ONE TRULY KNOWS

There is some evidence, such as melting of glaciers, rise of global temperature, which are assumed to be possibly associated with rise in CO2 production...we also have geologic records that associate temperature rises in the past with large amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere...all of this combined isn't exactly strong evidence, but it is evidence nonetheless...could this be dangerous for mankind? who knows? no one truly knows, and we probably won't know for awhile, but if this theory proves correct, than it is certainly a possibility

On the flipside of the argument, what is there that is substantive? The discussion about sunspot activity is interesting, maybe it plays a larger part than indicated? Is it also possible that our scientists just don't know enough about climate change yet? maybe there are other variables in play that we don't know about? certainly ocean currents, anoxic ocean events, and wind currents are still being explored

No one truly knows, so its important to keep all ideas on the table

Personally, I know enough about climatology (which really isn't squat, but if anyone really knew anything about climatology on this board, we'd be researching it, not posting stupid $hit) to know that melting glaciers override deming's emphasis on how cold this year's winter was...if every year was that cold, the glaciers probably wouldn't be melting, and he might have a significant point about overall climate change

The real argument isn't about how the earth is warming, because most scientists, including Deming if you read more about him, acknowledge that is has, because there is empirical proof...Deming's true stance is that its natural, not created by man...his main argument is against the validity of the researchers that created the hockey-stick graph

[EvilVodka]

Just for example, yet another article you won't see on CNN, MSNBC or the New York Times:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8641

The most disturbing part of this link is that the small % of the UN report's text that was actually written by scientists was "edited" to....hold your breathe...."ensure compliance." Think about that. The scientists findings were edited, by member nation politicians, to ENSURE COMPLIANCE. It's not about their wanting to save Earth. It is about control. It is about mandates for world nations that will allow total control. That is all it is about. The Earth is not in danger. We are not going to melt. But if they are able to "ensure compliance", we may be saluting a U.N. flag instead of a U.S. flag.

This is someone's blog...you can read this stuff for fun, but how substantive is any of this?

Here's another blog capture by him:
http://www.dailytech.com/Solar+Activity+Diminishes+Researchers+Predict+Anot her+Ice+Age/article10630.htm

It seems interesting, and might have some plausible theories to it...

but what does this statement mean?
"Observational data seems to support the claims -- or doesn't contradict it, at least. According to data from Britain's Met Office, the earth has cooled very slightly since 1998. The Met Office says global warming "will pick up again shortly." Others aren't so sure."

what exactly does he mean by that first sentence? its vague

2 of his links just lead to news stories, specifically editorials and opinions

the denmark link is somewhat interesting

[Bucs90]

Yeah, it is. And it seems more and more with each passing day that journalism is becoming nothing but a collection of blogs written by employees of X news outlet. My point is this cluster is a mess, we do not know the truth about GW because as you said, no one knows. But the alarmists stand on a soap box and take the moral high ground, when nothing validates them to do so when counter arguments have not been disproven. I haven't researched it, but I heard on radio about the record HIGH amount of ice and snow on the poles and how it was not being reported. Is that true? There are so many facts or studies, for both sides, that don't get covered. I truly honestly believe Global Warming efforts by politicians and national governments, and the U.N., are not being done in the interest of caring for the Earth. It is to create a carbon tax, and in turn, control and power over.....well, how much control and power depends on how many people buy into it, or worse, refuse "compliance".

[ZOOMBAG]

Like 10,000 years? It's been a LOT warmer during human history than anything we have seen in the past 500 years. And long before industry was ever around. We have yet to break most of the records set during the dust bowl years in the Great Plains....not even getting close. In 1934 Omaha had 8 days over 110. It hasn't hit 110 in Omaha in over 30 years.

I will never buy any idiocy that blames man for climate fluctuations. Not ever.

[ZOOMBAG]

This "steady net increase" in temperature the past 20 years has been almost TOTALLY negated in the last two with a significant DECREASE in SOLAR output.

The SUN, not man, controls the weather, period. End of story. Man is IRRELEVANT.

I vow to have the largest possible carbon footprint I can possibly have before I die. I like carbon. So does my wife, especially the kind she can wear...

And I couldn;t give a sh!t about the planet. I pick up my trash but that's about it. I will NEVER reduce my way of life for some evnironmental lunacy.

LONG LIVE THE SUV!!!!

[ZOOMBAG]

We've had the largest Northern Hemisphere snow cover since 1966. The coldest winter in North America since 1978-79 (when this same organization of "scientists" were alarming us about global cooling....caused, of course, by cabon emissions.) and the Coldest winter in over 100 years in east Asia. This is two years removed from the coldest winter in Europe in 150 years...COLDER in Russia than the winter of 1941-42 that stopped Hitler in his tracks.

Not buying your left wing socialist wealth redistribution rants on more idiotic environmental nonsense. Because that's what it is NONSENSE.

[ZOOMBAG]

We are still FAR COLDER than time of Christ and Rome when Citrus crops were grown in England and Scandanavia. COLDER now than the very warm period of early 1800';s and nowhere close in the Great Plains to the Dust Bowl years....NOT EVEN CLOSE.

ANd in TWO SHORT YEARS, a reduction of solar activity has LOWERED temperatures so far as to almost wipe out the entire warming level we have been hearing about of the last 20 years.

Got this, moron? The SUN....that yellow ball in the sky....is what controls our weather. NOt man. We are insects. We don't matter. And we never will

[ZOOMBAG]

When I'm not enduring the coldest winters I have ever experienced I might listen. But the last two winters have been BRUTAL. And from the latest reports from many of this same group, the global temperatures in 2006 and 2007 have reversed DRAMATICALLY and now they don't have an explanation excpet that solar activity is at it's lowest levels since the late 1970's....when it was also brutally cold.

[EvilVodka]

I vow to have the largest possible carbon footprint I can possibly have before I die. I like carbon. So does my wife, especially the kind she can wear...

And I couldn;t give a sh!t about the planet. I pick up my trash but that's about it. I will NEVER reduce my way of life for some evnironmental lunacy.

LONG LIVE THE SUV!!!!


"I Hate the Planet!http://www.santa.cc/santa_suits_pics/grinch_std_morris_tb4095.jpg Arggghhhh!!!!!"

["14-O" U.]

"I Hate the Planet!http://www.santa.cc/santa_suits_pics/grinch_std_morris_tb4095.jpg Arggghhhh!!!!!"

Glad I wasn't drinking anythine when I saw that post :D

[Bucs90]

ZOOM, that was awesome. Yes, I also hope to have the largest carbon footprint possible. You ever see the Stephen Colbert episode where he turns on an empty microwave for 30 minutes and confirms with his staff the make sure it is pure waste? Thats how I feel sometimes.

Why is it the solar activity information you speak of never gets mentioned by the press? That is such a logical explanation for the temperature change. As I said before, global warming measures have nothing to do with the planet. They are about nothing more than controlling nations and people through eventual carbon taxes.

I'm currently shopping for a new truck. A classmate suggested a hybrid Ford SUV. No way. I want a pick-up with the biggest, loudest most carbon-producing engine I can possibly find. If Hummers weren't ugly I would own one of them just to burn more gas, but they look like giant Matchbox cars to me. You got any carbon spewing suggestions for me on a new vehicle? Price range 35-60K.

[Bucs90]

Oh and Zoom, do you have a link for that Sun activity vs Temp data? I'd love to print it out and keep it handy for any communists I have a conversation with.

[Blue Hen]

I've got just the truck to sell you, B90. Seriously. It's an 02 Dodge Ram 1500 Sport , silver with matching camper top. It's a crew cab and loaded (leather , power everything ) Only 65,000 miles and serviced every 3,000 miles. It's really big ! Has an 8500 lb towing capacity. You look down on everything as you cruise the highway. It's 4 wheel drive ! It's got 20 " wheels and it gets 11.7 MPG !!!! ..from the old 5.7 ltr V8. It will satisfy all your gas burning , carbon producing fantasies. Guaranteed. This thing has BALLS !
I'm aspiring to a 6 cyl truck ( probably a Tacoma ). So ,come on up and get it. I'll sell for a fair price.

[Bucs90]

Hmmm. Tempting Hen. Give me a month to consider? If I can't find anything in a month I'll PM you about it. Just as long as it will help warm the globe though!

I've had a Ranger 6 cyl for 8 years. Great truck- I use it primarily for moving (and helping every long-lost friend I forgot I had move!!!) and driving the dog around to the beach and lake, etc. But, alas, the 6 cyl doesn't do enough to stop this global cooling cycle we are entering, so I'm trying to upgrade to the bigger, more CO2 producing styles to help do my part, ya know?

[Blue Hen]

Nah, that 6cyl stuff is for sissys. This truck , referred to as the 'mother truck' by my friends, will warm the Earth .0457 degrees everytime you fire it up.

[Bucs90]

Wow. Will my owning it be credited with killing at least 1 tree in Brazil?

[Jim]

An Ice Age. Something that SUVs have had no part in for eons. This scam perpetuated by Algore and Company is nothing more than a plan to take from the masses and enslave them. Of course India and China are exempt and they are the largest polluters. Its all BS. Mother Nature, working with our sun, does this from time to time. We're not capable of ruining this planet as the planet will rid us like a simple virus if we get too frisky. Arrogance is a major attribute of the human species mindset. We actually think we're really King Shit when we are only fools. Hell, dinosaurs didn't do anything to deserve their extinction yet they got offed with absolutely no recourse or appeal process.

[ZOOMBAG]

treyinathens had the links in the last thread on the subject.....There are some on NASA's site, too that indicate a decline over the past two year in solar activity.

[ZOOMBAG]

For the same reason the near total military success of Bush's surge strategy never gets reported. Al Qeada has been near totally eliminated in Iraq but you'll never hear about that in the press, either.

You will hear about the economy ad-nauseum until it bottoms out and starts its inevitable recovery but the recovery won't make the news.

When oil goes back down in the 70's or lower again, as Americans inevitably begin to move en-masse to hybrids, fuel cells, and electrics over the next five years or so, you won't hear about oil prices any more.

Of course, if the sun continues to output solar energy at more normal or slightly below normal you can be the press will blame the coming global cooling panic on us evil consuming Americans again.

As you know, the American media believes that it's own country is fundamentally evil....

[Bucs90]

Yes, Zoom, the media hates it's own country. If a space alien landed and watched CNN, they wouldn't be able to ID what country it is based in.

I disagree with you on one thing though. You said the media will blame the coming cooling on evil Americans. I disagree. WHEN the global cooling trend comes, the media will praise the liberals and intellectuals who took such drastic steps as changing lightbulbs and driving a Prius to reverse global warming.

Zoom, I promise you, WHEN the global cooling trend is set in, the liberals will absolutely take credit for it and say their efforts to combat global warming worked despite all us evil right-wingers. I can hear it now. "See, we told you it would work!" It will be enough to make us want to vomit.

[ZOOMBAG]

Nah....liberalism is all about spreading the sufferring so everyone can be miserable. Liberals never praise anything. There is something they have to make people feel guilty about.

Guilt is not an emotion I have ever experienced and never will, which is why I could never become a liberal even if I wanted to

[Bucs90]

Hmmm. You do have a point there. I don't think the liberals could resist taking credit for it though. I mean, either that or they'll have to accept they were wrong about global warming.

I fear the next liberal talking point is going to be the useless lost cause of national borders. We are all just humans on large peices of land anyway, right? Why do we need to lable, discriminate, classify, disenfranchise and restrict fellow humans with these out-dated worldwide borders? Ugh, I fear that is going to be the post-global warming liberal goal.

[Bucs90]

NCT, I think the changing of behavior is not as much their goal as equalizing the world is. They want nations to become obsolete. They want the world population to be governed by one body. In their minds if there are no borders, no nations and no religion there will be no war. Because all wars, EVER, have been about nations needing more resources than other nations or over religion. Without borders, nations or religions there would hypothetically be no war. And the global warming scam is one way to weaken the U.S., thus allowing the global government to have a pathway to existence. Same is the deal for taking away the 2nd amendment. National pride is sickening to these people. And to weaken powerful nations to the level that a global government can take over they are going to attempt to use carbon taxes to cripple the highly developed nations.

I do agree with you about the religious people wanting wars for the rapture, etc. I'm very religious, but I do see what you are talking about. Christians mostly believe that God said no man will truly know when the end times arrive, but many will pretend to know. Fighting a war because one thinks it will hasten the rapture is ridiculous. If we knew when it was, or were close, everyone would repent, pray for forgiveness, etc. God wants to see who will do that WITHOUT the imminent end. So, in that regards, I agree with you on that.

[EvilVodka]

Why is it the solar activity information you speak of never gets mentioned by the press? That is such a logical explanation for the temperature change. As I said before, global warming measures have nothing to do with the planet. They are about nothing more than controlling nations and people through eventual carbon taxes.


your constant failure in your arguments is that your sources are pathetic...from think tanks, to editorials, to people's blogs, to Zoombag's opinion

if you're really expecting any true decent news to come from any pop news station on TV, you're going to disappointed every time...

if you're truly interested about the subject, go read some books, and if you're fanatically hardcore about it, search for peer-reviewed journal articles about the subject

I'm currently shopping for a new truck. A classmate suggested a hybrid Ford SUV. No way. I want a pick-up with the biggest, loudest most carbon-producing engine I can possibly find. If Hummers weren't ugly I would own one of them just to burn more gas, but they look like giant Matchbox cars to me. You got any carbon spewing suggestions for me on a new vehicle? Price range 35-60K.

What's the point of this line of thinking?

[EvilVodka]

We're not capable of ruining this planet as the planet will rid us like a simple virus if we get too frisky. Arrogance is a major attribute of the human species mindset. We actually think we're really King Shit when we are only fools. Hell, dinosaurs didn't do anything to deserve their extinction yet they got offed with absolutely no recourse or appeal process.

And this is exactly why people are worried, and undoubtedly you are right!

That's why there is a push for a "sustainable" existence

So can you blame people for worrying about the environment?

[Bucs90]

That line of thinking is no different than being a protester to the war in Iraq. Civil disobedience, consciencious objector, etc. I think the global warming hoax is a scam, so I protest it by making my carbon footprint as large as possible. If there was a TV that produced CO2 I would leave it on all day.

The "sources" can be shady on both sides. That doesn't change. I simply asked Zoom for his source, which he provided. The problem I have with the GW alarmists is that they attack the opposing view's speakers and sources rather than debating the facts and theories of the opposing side. There is a reason for that also.

[EvilVodka]

That line of thinking is no different than being a protester to the war in Iraq. Civil disobedience, consciencious objector, etc. I think the global warming hoax is a scam, so I protest it by making my carbon footprint as large as possible. If there was a TV that produced CO2 I would leave it on all day.

well you certainly have the right to do that, but its a real departure from logic...

if global warming due to CO2 emissions is a hoax like you say it is, then aren't you just running up your electric bill? if its a hoax, what's the point of extending your "carbon footprint"...?

The "sources" can be shady on both sides. That doesn't change. I simply asked Zoom for his source, which he provided. The problem I have with the GW alarmists is that they attack the opposing view's speakers and sources rather than debating the facts and theories of the opposing side. There is a reason for that also.

Undoubtedly the sources are shady on both sides, especially when it becomes political...so what's the problem with reading books and becoming knowledgeable of both sides of the issue to form your own viewpoint? Are you willing to go deeper and read up on the issues, or just take someone's word for it? What's the problem with being objective?

[EvilVodka]

Bucs90, read this article on Glacier National Park (in Montana) and let me know what you think:

http://www.geo.txstate.edu/directory/faculty/butler/Publications/Butler%20and%20DeChanoFinal.pdf

If you want to get more associated with the science aspect of it, and escape the political dogma, this article is a good place to start

Its written by a guy who does alot of work in Glacier National Park, here's his list of publications:

http://www.geo.txstate.edu/directory/faculty/butler/ButlerSite/ButlerPubs.htm

[Bucs90]

I tried the link, my laptop wouldn't open them. Got another, I am fair and will read them.

I'd say 95% of global warming nuts get their information from nothing more than word of mouth. You know, a loony professor or a movie. I actually have tried to read a lot on this- on both sides. And my personal belief is that GW is a scam. The Earth is warming naturally. And will cool naturally. Just like it has for millions of years. I refuse to buy into Al Gore and the U.N.'s carbon credit tax scam that is nothing more than a way to cripple our nation so the U.N. can control all nations.