SI article

[Don]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/bill_syken/04/05/scorecard.daily/index.html

This guy says UF and OSU need to meet yearly to capitalize on fan frenzy.

How about this one, UF ditches Western Kentucky and OSU drops Youngstown State and UF & OSU meet on 9/1 in Knoxville? Huge stadium, neutral site, Tenn will be playing at Cal that day so stadium empty. Think anyone might want to see that?

[CJHawkeyes]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/bill_syken/04/05/scorecard.daily/index.html

This guy says UF and OSU need to meet yearly to capitalize on fan frenzy.

How about this one, UF ditches Western Kentucky and OSU drops Youngstown State and UF & OSU meet on 9/1 in Knoxville? Huge stadium, neutral site, Tenn will be playing at Cal that day so stadium empty. Think anyone might want to see that?

I think the meaningful regular season demands games like UF vs Western Kentucky and Ohio State vs Youngstown State. How important would the regular season be if playoff teams weren't always undefeated because they were actually encouraged to play quality competition?

["14-O" U.]

I think the meaningful regular season demands games like UF vs Western Kentucky and Ohio State vs Youngstown State. How important would the regular season be if playoff teams weren't always undefeated because they were actually encouraged to play quality competition?

Sarcastic comments about scheduling from a Hawkeye fan? Maybe OSU should've traded Texas for Montana and Ball State the last couple of years.

[CJHawkeyes]

Sarcastic comments about scheduling from a Hawkeye fan? Maybe OSU should've traded Texas for Montana and Ball State the last couple of years.

Ridiculous comeback seeing as how I don't excuse Iowa from this practice either. My criticism is aimed at college football as a whole not at Ohio State and Florida who do better than most.

[jeff4bucks]

your point is well taken CJ. I would love to see more of this, though, I wouldn't say UF does better than most at scheduling.

[CJHawkeyes]

your point is well taken CJ. I would love to see more of this, though, I wouldn't say UF does better than most at scheduling.

Perhaps not, but they do have annual OOC game with Florida State.

[jeff4bucks]

Perhaps not, but they do have annual OOC game with Florida State.
True. i just hope FSU can get back to its late 80s and 90s form. Those UF/FSU games were great then.

[Don]

but I must disagree with your assertion.

your point is well taken CJ. I would love to see more of this, though, I wouldn't say UF does better than most at scheduling.

Here are the top 10 teams in the # of SCHEDULED ranked opponents during the regular season.

Past 5 years.
1 Florida 23
2 North Carolina 23
3 Arkansas 22
3 Georgia Tech 22
5 South Carolina 20
5 Vanderbilt 20
5 Northwestern 20
5 Notre Dame 20
5 Arizona 20
10 Auburn 19
10 Duke 19
10 Alabama 19
10 Penn St. 19
10 Michigan St. 19
10 Florida St. 19
10 Wake Forest 19
10 Tennessee 19

Past 10 years.
1 Florida 49
2 Auburn 45
3 Tennessee 43
4 Vanderbilt 42
5 Alabama 41
5 Kentucky 41
5 South Carolina 41
5 Arkansas 41
9 Northwestern 40
10 Michigan St. 39

Past 15 years.
1 Florida 70
2 Vanderbilt 64
3 Arkansas 62
4 Auburn 60
5 Michigan St. 59
5 LSU 59
5 Northwestern 59
5 Kentucky 59
9 South Carolina 58
9 Florida St. 58
9 Alabama 58

Past 20 years.
1 Florida 89
2 Notre Dame 79
3 Michigan St. 78
3 Vanderbilt 78
5 LSU 78
6 Auburn 77
7 Kentucky 76
8 Tennessee 75
8 Arkansas 75
8 South Carolina 75

Past 25 years.
1 Florida 111
2 Notre Dame 98
3 Florida St. 92
3 Auburn 92
3 Vanderbilt 92
6 Kentucky 91
7 Michigan St. 90
7 Alabama 90
9 Tennessee 89
9 Colorado 89

So while the teams 2-9 may change the # 1 team in the # of scheduled ranked opponents remains the same, UF. You will notice that OSU is NOT on any of the lists of top 10 teams so there IS a difference. Also notice that the gap between UF and #2 continues to grow as the years grow.

[CJHawkeyes]

Don, I think this discussion pertains to OOC scheduling. While I don't know this to be the case, if SEC teams are playing nobodys in OOC games, more will likely finish ranked allowing everyone in the conference to receive credit for playing more ranked opponents. Furthermore, the number of ranked opponents played is affected by parity within a conference. For example, it's probably better to have two 8-3 teams and two 6-5 teams than four 7-4 teams. Out of curiousity, what is strongest OOC opponent Florida has had in recent years excluding Florida State?

[EvilVodka]

Out of curiousity, what is strongest OOC opponent Florida has had in recent years excluding Florida State?

Miami

[CJHawkeyes]

Miami

Duh! I should have remembered that. For the record, I wasn't implying that Florida doesn't play a strong schedule even if the arguments I made in my last post do account for some of the ranked opponents played.

[Don]

Don, I think this discussion pertains to OOC scheduling. While I don't know this to be the case, if SEC teams are playing nobodys in OOC games, more will likely finish ranked allowing everyone in the conference to receive credit for playing more ranked opponents. Furthermore, the number of ranked opponents played is affected by parity within a conference. For example, it's probably better to have two 8-3 teams and two 6-5 teams than four 7-4 teams. Out of curiousity, what is strongest OOC opponent Florida has had in recent years excluding Florida State?

Why use only OOC schedule? That completely ignores the fact that some conferences are stronger than others. That combined with the fact that teams play twice as many IN-conference games as out-of-conference games means that you are ignoring the majority of the difficult games for some conferences.

Here is a list of teams that have played the most top 10 opponents over the past 25 years. Surely, the polls are biased to the point where teams ranked in the top 10 aren't really among the truely best regardless of conference affiliation?

1 Florida 57
2 Auburn 47
3 Missouri 45
3 Colorado 45
5 Kentucky 44
5 Tennessee 44
7 Stanford 43
7 LSU 43
9 Michigan St. 42
10 Kansas 41
10 Washington 41
10 Iowa St. 41
10 Purdue 41
10 Georgia 41
10 Alabama 41
10 UCLA 41

Why is it "better" to play two 8-3 teams and two 6-5 teams than to play four 7-4 teams? Assuming that record = goodness, it is harder to go 4-0 vs the first schedule than the second for teams above the average. So if you want to discuss "hardness" of schedule then, yes, it is better to play the first schedule than the second. IF you goal is to go 4-0 then it is "better" to play the second schedule.

Why exclude FSU? Are you going to exclude ND from USC's schedule or vice versa? The fact that FSU ended up in the top 5 twelve years in a row SHOULD NOT be held against UF. It should be held to UF's credit! Find me ANY other team in the country that played a top 5 team during the regular schedule twelve years in a row? Why in God name should UF be required to schedule additional difficult opponets just because the same team is good every year?

Anyway, here is the list of top teams that have played ranked opponents OOC over the past 25 years.

1 USC 37
2 Florida 33
3 UCLA 29
3 Maryland 29
5 Texas 28
6 Georgia Tech 27
6 Florida St. 27
6 Houston 27
9 Utah St. 26
9 Colorado 26
9 Washington 26

Yes, IF you only count OOC games then USC has played more ranked opponents over the past 25 years. However, over that span USC has played only 50 ranked PAC 10 teams while UF has played 78 ranked SEC teams (56% MORE!!!). Yes, of those 33 OOC games, 22 were against FSU, 7 were against Miami, one against ECU, one against USM, one against Syracuse, and one against USC.

IF we assume the rankings are biased again we can look at only the top 10 ranked opponents. Here is a list of the teams that have played top 10 teams OOC over the past 25 years.

1 Florida 20
2 Florida St. 17
2 USC 17
4 UCLA 16
4 San Diego St. 16
4 Maryland 16
4 Houston 16
8 Miami (FL) 15
9 Washington 14
9 Texas 14


I will repeat, there is a differnce between the scheduling of UF and OSU. By the way, where is IOWA in any of these lists?

[GatorGrad]

Don knows his stuff!

Go Gators - Three titles in a row!

[CJHawkeyes]

Wow, I did a poor job of making my point. For starters, I'm not criticizing Florida's scheduling. In fact, I believe Florida ranks first in schedule strength under my ranking system since 1978. However, that does not necessarily mean the Gators play the most difficult schedules which is the point I was trying to make regarding the number of ranked opponents played. Certainly, Florida has played some very successful opponents and does not need to apologize for their schedules. I was just trying to make a point that drawing an arbitrary line at the Top 25 and counting the number of ranked opponents played does not necessarily equate to a more difficult schedule. Basically, it is better for a team's number regarding ranked opponents played if its conference rivals load up on cupcakes in OOC play and the top half of a conference dominates the bottom half. A team that plays two 8-3 and two 6-5 opponents will likely add to its total whereas a team that plays four 7-4 teams will not. But that hardly means the former's schedule is more difficult especially if the difference is that the 6-5 teams won in the second scenario making all teams 7-4. Also, in the case of teams like Vanderbilt, their high number of ranked opponents is due to the fact that they almost always lose to such teams. How many would still be ranked if Vanderbilt had won some of those games? Of course, at this point, I'm not even sure I think my point is even relevant. For example, I think my ranking system would encourage more difficult scheduling, but more difficult schedules will not necessarily have greater objective value. Basically, my system rewards playing successful competition rather than difficult competition and Florida has certainly accomplished the former which is what I value based on the rules I favor.

As for excluding Florida State, I only wanted to know what other brand name teams Florida had scheduled OOC recently because I could not remember anyone at the time I asked. I wasn't suggesting that Florida had to schedule more than Florida State. I also wasn't excluding conference schedules for any other reason than the original post was an article about replacing games scheduled with I-AA opponents with a rematch between Florida and Ohio State.

Ultimately, I wasn't criticizing Florida's scheduling and I don't pretend Iowa's schedules are that great. In fact, under my ranking system, due to their schedules, Iowa tends to rank lower than they do in the polls.

[jeff4bucks]

OOC Don, OOC.

[EvilVodka]

back to the original theme of this thread...I think it would be great to see Florida and Ohio State play at least a 4-6 game series...it would certainly be great to watch and great for TV

For that matter, you could have other cross country series like USC-LSU (why hasn't this happened???), Texas-Michigan, Notre Dame-Oklahoma...

[Don]

OOC Don, OOC.

From a previous post of mine.

Why use only OOC schedule? That completely ignores the fact that some conferences are stronger than others. That combined with the fact that teams play twice as many IN-conference games as out-of-conference games means that you are ignoring the majority of the difficult games for some conferences.

...here is the list of top teams that have played ranked opponents OOC over the past 25 years.

1 USC 37
2 Florida 33
3 UCLA 29
3 Maryland 29
5 Texas 28
6 Georgia Tech 27
6 Florida St. 27
6 Houston 27
9 Utah St. 26
9 Colorado 26
9 Washington 26

Yes, IF you only count OOC games then USC has played more ranked opponents over the past 25 years. However, over that span USC has played only 50 ranked PAC 10 teams while UF has played 78 ranked SEC teams (56% MORE!!!). Yes, of those 33 OOC games, 22 were against FSU, 7 were against Miami, one against ECU, one against USM, one against Syracuse, and one against USC.


Notice the complete lack of Big 10 schools in this list.

[Doc]

USC plays Notre Dame every year...no surprise they are on the list since ND is usually ranked. Florida plays FSU every year and played Miami for many years as well...do any other teams show up as OOC rated teams played by the Gators. Personally, I don't care. I know my team has attempted to play a top OOC team every year...unfortunately you never know how good a team is going to be when you schedule years in advance. Also, are you counting bowl games?

Here are some of the OOC teams OSU has played since the mid 70's...

UCLA - 4 times
USC - 2 times
ND - 2 times
Washington - 3 times
Washington State - 1 time
Alabama - 1 time
Texas - 2 times
Miami - 1 time
Texas Tech - 1 time
Boston College - 2 times
LSU - 2 times
NC State - 2 times
Syracuse - 2 times
Oklahoma - 2 times
Stanford - 2 times

In additon OSU has home and home series scheduled with USC, Miami, Virginia Tech and Oklahoma...none of these teams are too shabby right now.

[ZOOMBAG]

but I must disagree with your assertion.



Here are the top 10 teams in the # of SCHEDULED ranked opponents during the regular season.

Past 5 years.
1 Florida 23
2 North Carolina 23
3 Arkansas 22
3 Georgia Tech 22
5 South Carolina 20
5 Vanderbilt 20
5 Northwestern 20
5 Notre Dame 20
5 Arizona 20
10 Auburn 19
10 Duke 19
10 Alabama 19
10 Penn St. 19
10 Michigan St. 19
10 Florida St. 19
10 Wake Forest 19
10 Tennessee 19

Past 10 years.
1 Florida 49
2 Auburn 45
3 Tennessee 43
4 Vanderbilt 42
5 Alabama 41
5 Kentucky 41
5 South Carolina 41
5 Arkansas 41
9 Northwestern 40
10 Michigan St. 39

Past 15 years.
1 Florida 70
2 Vanderbilt 64
3 Arkansas 62
4 Auburn 60
5 Michigan St. 59
5 LSU 59
5 Northwestern 59
5 Kentucky 59
9 South Carolina 58
9 Florida St. 58
9 Alabama 58

Past 20 years.
1 Florida 89
2 Notre Dame 79
3 Michigan St. 78
3 Vanderbilt 78
5 LSU 78
6 Auburn 77
7 Kentucky 76
8 Tennessee 75
8 Arkansas 75
8 South Carolina 75

Past 25 years.
1 Florida 111
2 Notre Dame 98
3 Florida St. 92
3 Auburn 92
3 Vanderbilt 92
6 Kentucky 91
7 Michigan St. 90
7 Alabama 90
9 Tennessee 89
9 Colorado 89

So while the teams 2-9 may change the # 1 team in the # of scheduled ranked opponents remains the same, UF. You will notice that OSU is NOT on any of the lists of top 10 teams so there IS a difference. Also notice that the gap between UF and #2 continues to grow as the years grow.

Try scheduled non-conference opponents. Ranked teams inside a given conference is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[ZOOMBAG]

Why use only OOC schedule? That completely ignores the fact that some conferences are stronger than others. That combined with the fact that teams play twice as many IN-conference games as out-of-conference games means that you are ignoring the majority of the difficult games for some conferences.

Here is a list of teams that have played the most top 10 opponents over the past 25 years. Surely, the polls are biased to the point where teams ranked in the top 10 aren't really among the truely best regardless of conference affiliation?

1 Florida 57
2 Auburn 47
3 Missouri 45
3 Colorado 45
5 Kentucky 44
5 Tennessee 44
7 Stanford 43
7 LSU 43
9 Michigan St. 42
10 Kansas 41
10 Washington 41
10 Iowa St. 41
10 Purdue 41
10 Georgia 41
10 Alabama 41
10 UCLA 41

Why is it "better" to play two 8-3 teams and two 6-5 teams than to play four 7-4 teams? Assuming that record = goodness, it is harder to go 4-0 vs the first schedule than the second for teams above the average. So if you want to discuss "hardness" of schedule then, yes, it is better to play the first schedule than the second. IF you goal is to go 4-0 then it is "better" to play the second schedule.

Why exclude FSU? Are you going to exclude ND from USC's schedule or vice versa? The fact that FSU ended up in the top 5 twelve years in a row SHOULD NOT be held against UF. It should be held to UF's credit! Find me ANY other team in the country that played a top 5 team during the regular schedule twelve years in a row? Why in God name should UF be required to schedule additional difficult opponets just because the same team is good every year?

Anyway, here is the list of top teams that have played ranked opponents OOC over the past 25 years.

1 USC 37
2 Florida 33
3 UCLA 29
3 Maryland 29
5 Texas 28
6 Georgia Tech 27
6 Florida St. 27
6 Houston 27
9 Utah St. 26
9 Colorado 26
9 Washington 26

Yes, IF you only count OOC games then USC has played more ranked opponents over the past 25 years. However, over that span USC has played only 50 ranked PAC 10 teams while UF has played 78 ranked SEC teams (56% MORE!!!). Yes, of those 33 OOC games, 22 were against FSU, 7 were against Miami, one against ECU, one against USM, one against Syracuse, and one against USC.

IF we assume the rankings are biased again we can look at only the top 10 ranked opponents. Here is a list of the teams that have played top 10 teams OOC over the past 25 years.

1 Florida 20
2 Florida St. 17
2 USC 17
4 UCLA 16
4 San Diego St. 16
4 Maryland 16
4 Houston 16
8 Miami (FL) 15
9 Washington 14
9 Texas 14


I will repeat, there is a differnce between the scheduling of UF and OSU. By the way, where is IOWA in any of these lists?

Using ranked teams in a conference is nothing more that self-fulfillment. Sure conferences are "stronger" than others but the rankings do not typically reflect that very well. The best conference in the power ratings over the past 10 years has been the PAC 10 but they have fewer ranked teams for whatever reason.

If a conference has 5 ranked teams, 2, 5, 10, 17 and 23, when #2 plays #5 and loses they lose only a spot or two in the polls, they then lose to #10 and they drop only another 3 sports or so, leaving them STILL in the top 10 with TWO losses so when #17 then plays them they get the benifit of playing #10. That is simply falaciousness based on a high pre-season ranking. The reality is such that that two loss top 10 team is REALLY nothing more than a borderline top 25 team, if that, based on nothing more than being highly ranked in the preseason.....

So no, ranked teams in the same conference do not count for an analysis like this. Only OOC ranked opponents have any real value.

[Blue Hen]

Evil,
Oh yeah...LSU / USC would be spectacular, but LSU would probably have had to give up its games vs Citadel, Western Illinois, Appalachian State and Western Carolina for that to happen...........you know, become 'full time' members of NCAA D1A. :-)

[Don]

Using ranked teams in a conference is nothing more that self-fulfillment. Sure conferences are "stronger" than others but the rankings do not typically reflect that very well. The best conference in the power ratings over the past 10 years has been the PAC 10 but they have fewer ranked teams for whatever reason.

I don't believe that so-called conference ranking provide any useful info on the caliber of the conference's best teams. It simple tells you about the average of all of the teams in the conference and NOt anything about the top teams. The fact that the PAC 10 has had relatively few ranked teams at the end is indicative of the conference having few good teams and many mediocre teams to bring up the conference average. Also, I'm not sure where you are getting your info on the PAC 10 being the "best" conference over the past 10 years. Using the Howell rankings as an example, here are the conference power averages over the past 10 years.

SEC 0.6296
Pac 10 0.6185
Big Ten 0.6080
Big 12 0.6068
ACC 0.5986



If a conference has 5 ranked teams, 2, 5, 10, 17 and 23, when #2 plays #5 and loses they lose only a spot or two in the polls, they then lose to #10 and they drop only another 3 sports or so, leaving them STILL in the top 10 with TWO losses so when #17 then plays them they get the benifit of playing #10. That is simply falaciousness based on a high pre-season ranking. The reality is such that that two loss top 10 team is REALLY nothing more than a borderline top 25 team, if that, based on nothing more than being highly ranked in the preseason.....

So no, ranked teams in the same conference do not count for an analysis like this. Only OOC ranked opponents have any real value.


The ranking I used are the end of the year NOT the game day ranking which I agree are nearly meaningless particularly at the beginning of the season. But, I do believe that year-end ranking are pretty meaningful. Just compare the Massey compostite to the Final AP. The correlation for the top 25 is quite high (above 0.95). Thus counting ranked opponents whether in or out of conference IS justified.

[GatorGrad]

Evil,
Oh yeah...LSU / USC would be spectacular, but LSU would probably have had to give up its games vs Citadel, Western Illinois, Appalachian State and Western Carolina for that to happen...........you know, become 'full time' members of NCAA D1A. :-)

What about LSU's game with VaTech?

[Blue Hen]

What about it ??? Kudos to both schools for scheduling games like that, but LSU has played 4 1AA teams in the 2000s ( with more on tap ).....same as Florida. The SEC has played 36 1AA teams in the 2000s. That's not sport. Its revenue producing and record inflating 'exhibition'.
BTW, I'm heading to Baton Rouge for that game. Looking forward to the Tiger Stadium experience.

[EvilVodka]

What about LSU's game with VaTech?

or LSU's games with Arizona, Arizona St., and Oregon St.

LSU has played PAC 10 teams, and USC has played some SEC teams...but they need to play each other...it almost happened last year in the Rose Bowl, that probably would have been the best game of the BCS

oh well...they'll probably finally get to play each other years from now when neither team is doing well and no one cares